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Spain...destroying themselves from the inside

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Love the press coverage in international news.  The poison from Rajoys camp is incredibly insidious and the newspaper where I work once again is an embarrassment.  

 

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6 hours ago, MeakMaker said:

I used Birmingham in the West Midlands as an example to actually expose my ignorance. I stated I never even heard of Catalonia before. I always thought of Barcelona being in Spain not paying much attention to its actual area. I meant to say forgive my ignorance but the way I see it all these big major cities are known to be part of a big nation. People will know that Milan is in Italy for example. But how many would know it's in Lombardy region? Same goes for Birmingham. Most people would know it's in England but how many would know it's actually in the West Midlands county. I was referring to the geographical aspect of it. I wasn't talking about their political situation I was only showcasing my ignorance. I see on the news these people in Barcelona shouting Catalonia Catalonia Catalania... and I'm thinking Shut up nobody knows where that even is. They look ridiculous. It's the way they expose their supremacy thinking I just can't take it. For all I care they can be independent from planet earth. I find them insufferable. 

Errrrr 

WTF?????

:lmao:

Oh dear.  Why did I spent my time trying to explain here the very complicated issue??????? 

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To all you people trying to put me on the spot  because of my ignorance... I already stated I'm ignorant on the subject. Jesus are you all so self absorbed you can't even read? I said I don't know much on the matter and I'm extremely ignorant. 

As I stated all I see is a bunch of people from a region in Spain I never even heard of going all out wanting independence. They don't look as if they are starving or being oppressed. They are  shown shouting Catalania Catalania as if they're at a football match or something. They reported the referendum was illegal so why did people want to take part into something which won't be legally bounded? I am not discussing the police brutality. Of course I'm opposed to it.

Again, I admit my ignorance so no need to rub it to my face AGAIN ffs. But again for a better understanding is what is going in Spain a little bit similar to what the Italian Northern League always wanted to do in Italy? Which is claim independence from the rest of Italy ( the northern side of Italy is much wealthier and they they don't want to support the poorest areas which are in the south of the country)? Instead of making fun of me you can easily educate me. Some of you people are acting like bitches :laugh: No need for that on here. No need to redicule people especially when they admit to their ignorance.

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8 hours ago, Hector said:

 

Is she being ironic? The lyrics seem to give out a totalitarian, protectionist message.. But the video seems to suggest that these ideas are a form of brainwashing itself. So I'm not quite sure if she is actually in favour or opposed to the idea of independence. Reminds me of  Army Of Me which is my fave Bjork song. 

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May I ask, what the plans of the the Catalan government for an independent Catalonia are? I mean what do they think is going to happen to their economy. In a way this feels like the Brexit where people are not fully thinking about the consequences. Does the Catalan government thinks everything remains the same? Yesterday evening on the news they said a Brexit situation for Catalonia would result in a decrease of a minimum of 25% of its GDP. Do they understand that they will not be part of the EU any longer? That they will have to have their own currency? That this means borders, customs and the list goes on and on.

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3 minutes ago, Raider of the lost Ark said:

May I ask, what the plans of the the Catalan government for an independent Catalonia are? I mean what do they think is going to happen to their economy. In a way this feels like the Brexit where people are not fully thinking about the consequences. Does the Catalan government thinks everything remains the same? Yesterday evening on the news they said a Brexit situation for Catalonia would result in a decrease of a minimum of 25% of its GDP. Do they understand that they will not be part of the EU any longer? That they will have to have their own currency? That this means borders, customs and the list goes on and on.

Why don't you find a Catalan and ask them? 

This narrative that the ignorant populace of a country or region have no idea what they're doing or voting for is shockingly arrogant and out of touch, and as someone said earlier, the very essence of fascism.

With that thinking, the good old British Empire would still be ruling half the world.

 

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12 minutes ago, Raider of the lost Ark said:

May I ask, what the plans of the the Catalan government for an independent Catalonia are? I mean what do they think is going to happen to their economy. In a way this feels like the Brexit where people are not fully thinking about the consequences. Does the Catalan government thinks everything remains the same? Yesterday evening on the news they said a Brexit situation for Catalonia would result in a decrease of a minimum of 25% of its GDP. Do they understand that they will not be part of the EU any longer? That they will have to have their own currency? That this means borders, customs and the list goes on and on.

Exactly. There are so many questions... the way the press is presenting this story is kind of a similar to the Brexit scenario. 

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Just now, Kim said:

Why don't you find a Catalan and ask them? 

This narrative that the ignorant populace of a country or region have no idea what they're doing or voting for is shockingly arrogant and out of touch, and as someone said earlier, the very essence of fascism.

With that thinking, the good old British Empire would still be ruling half the world.

 

Are Catalans oppressed by the Spain government? 

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Just now, MeakMaker said:

Are Catalans oppressed by the Spain government? 

The Catalans have their OWN government. I realise that you think espousing the fact that you're ignorant lets you off, but it doesn't. Go and use Google.

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5 minutes ago, Kim said:

The Catalans have their OWN government. I realise that you think espousing the fact that you're ignorant lets you off, but it doesn't. Go and use Google.

That's the problem with the internet these days though. Google won't give you real info necessarily. Reason why I'm asking questions and give you just a little bit of what I think is because I have Spanish friends from Madrid. When I asked them the other day they told me Catalonia always had problems with Spain central government. Every now and then they would call for independence. I gathered that could be similar to the Scottish scenario. They also said a lot of these people in Catalonia are using this long standing situation to give way to a supremacy thinking. They think they're better than the rest of Spain; financially they can make it on their own and they look down at Spanish people. In fact they even refuse to be called Spanish. I wondered how so as always believed Barcelona being in Spain and they said IT IS but these people want to defy laws and central politics for their own gains and push an independence agenda. Reminds of the Northern Italian League and their independence agenda if you're familiar with it. 

Truth is we are witnessing to a lot of crazy shit going on in the world. Lately there are more and more people accepting ideas of protectionism, division and supremacy. I'm not saying this is the case with Catalonia but seeing it all from the big picture it might as well fit into the same social/ political thinking that's been taking place recently. 

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1 hour ago, MeakMaker said:

To all you people trying to put me on the spot  because of my ignorance... I already stated I'm ignorant on the subject. Jesus are you all so self absorbed you can't even read? I said I don't know much on the matter and I'm extremely ignorant. 

As I stated all I see is a bunch of people from a region in Spain I never even heard of going all out wanting independence. They don't look as if they are starving or being oppressed. They are  shown shouting Catalania Catalania as if they're at a football match or something. They reported the referendum was illegal so why did people want to take part into something which won't be legally bounded? I am not discussing the police brutality. Of course I'm opposed to it.

Again, I admit my ignorance so no need to rub it to my face AGAIN ffs. But again for a better understanding is what is going in Spain a little bit similar to what the Italian Northern League always wanted to do in Italy? Which is claim independence from the rest of Italy ( the northern side of Italy is much wealthier and they they don't want to support the poorest areas which are in the south of the country)? Instead of making fun of me you can easily educate me. Some of you people are acting like bitches :laugh: No need for that on here. No need to redicule people especially when they admit to their ignorance.

There's nothing wrong not knowing about this issue. In fact, it's NORMAL not to know about this! 

The thing is that we have posted lots of information here precisely to try to understand what happens in Catalonia and Spain at the moment. You could have read it instead of calling names to separatists. That's why most of us were surprised. 

 

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17 minutes ago, Kim said:

Why don't you find a Catalan and ask them? 

This narrative that the ignorant populace of a country or region have no idea what they're doing or voting for is shockingly arrogant and out of touch, and as someone said earlier, the very essence of fascism.

With that thinking, the good old British Empire would still be ruling half the world.

 

WTF is the matter with you recently? I was asking a simple question in hope one of the Spanish members on this board could answer, if the broader consequences of the independence were addressed properly. I mentioned the Brexit for a very specific reason. It has clearly shown that politicians fighting for their own interest have no shame spreading false information or were downright lying to their voters. It is not arrogant to believe that parts of the populace are ignorant and that they don't know what they are voting for. It is facing the reality. On what planet have you been living in the last 2 years to not see that? It is exactly the ignorance of the populace that makes things like Brexit, Trump, Marine LePen, AFD happen.

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1 minute ago, karbatal said:

There's nothing wrong not knowing about this issue. In fact, it's NORMAL not to know about this! 

The thing is that we have posted lots of information here precisely to try to understand what happens in Catalonia and Spain at the moment. You could have read it instead of calling names to separatists. That's why most of us were surprised. 

 

Well sorry karbatal.. I quickly went though this thread to get some info but all I could read was back and forth "insults" between members. And I didn't call anyone any names... I was simply describing what I saw on the news. People holding their arm up as if they were Nazi chanting Catalonia Catalonia.That WAS real..  NOT fake news. They looked as if they were at a football match. 

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2 minutes ago, Raider of the lost Ark said:

WTF is the matter with you recently? I was asking a simple question in hope one of the Spanish members on this board could answer, if the broader consequences of the independence were addressed properly. I mentioned the Brexit for a very specific reason. It has clearly shown that politicians fighting for their own interest have no shame spreading false information or were downright lying to their voters. It is not arrogant to believe that parts of the populace are ignorant and that they don't know what they are voting for. It is facing the reality. On what planet have you been living in the last 2 years to not see that? It is exactly the ignorance of the populace that makes things like Brexit, Trump, Marine LePen, AFD happen.

This. 

Speak the truth and shame the devil, Raider. 

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34 minutes ago, Kim said:

Why don't you find a Catalan and ask them? 

This narrative that the ignorant populace of a country or region have no idea what they're doing or voting for is shockingly arrogant and out of touch, and as someone said earlier, the very essence of fascism.

With that thinking, the good old British Empire would still be ruling half the world.

 

Well, after the fac that the last European domestic referendum took place in the UK and the most googled search the next day there was "what is the EU?" , makes us wonder. 

I am a Spanish journalist and unfortunately I have to keep in touch with all this issue. And I haven't read a single thing about the route and plans from the Generalitat (Catalanish government) regarding the EU, the euro, the national debt and all other things. For example... what happens with the EU long-time investments, will they have to pay them back to Brussels as the UK have to pay that bill? 

The Generalitat, however, gives a very different message. Oriol Junqueras said last may: "“Es imposible, no hay ningún artículo, nada, que muestre que la UE puede expulsar a uno de sus miembros” (It is impossible, there is no article in the EU legislation about expelling one of their members).   Who is lying? Well, the European Comission REPEATED yesterday that an indepentent Catalonia would be out of the EU. Artur Mas, prior last general elections in Catalonia, said this: , “Cataluña estará dentro de Europa y en el euro, y con las condiciones que tenemos hoy”. (Catalonia will be in the EU and in the euro with the same conditions as we enjoy today". And that's a lie. 

 

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If finally this independence process takes place, this is a big opportunity for the EU to consider situations like this. Because it's absurd for the people to have to live together if they dont' want to. There has to be some "divorce" law that allows territories to disentangle. Maybe what I am now saying would mean chaos, I don't know, but I really hope this is created. What if Flandes wants to separate from Valonia? What if Veneto wants to separate from Italy? What if Scottland had gained independence a couple of years ago? 

It is incredible that the EU still considers this is an internal problem. It is not! 

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5 hours ago, promise to try said:

believe me, for some people in spain, and in catalunya (and basque country...) the constitution is the *.and, as it happens with the * and the catholics, only they know how to read it, the meaning of everything...and if you think in a different way, you are  a terrorist, and idiot, or want spain to be venezuela or iran! it´s crazy. they don´t do what the law says, but when you mention the unity of spain, the get really angry. There have been peoloe marching in favour of spain, singing fascist songs! of course, thanks to god or to people´s intelligence, they were a minority, but the police didn´t appear there to tell them to shut the fuck up with the songs.

Half of the catalonians didn´t go to vote, because they didn´t consider the referendum legal.And the pro referendum people know that. That´s why now they have problems between them, apparently, some want to declare independence, but others don´t see they have a clear mayority. Hopefully they will be wise enough to keep things peaceful. Yes, they have been trying to expell the spanish police from catalonia last night.But nobody was hurt.

About the woman that only wanted to talk in catalan to somebody here...everytime I go to barcelona and somebody tells me something in their language , I tell them that I´m not form there and they talk to me in spanish. Of course, sometimes catalan is so easy to understand for a spanish speaker that is not a problem.And I always wonder, if we all learned a little bit of all the languages in the schools, people will respect each others cultures more in spain. But the PP voters hate catalan people talking in their language...

The problem that I (and a lot of objective observers) have, is that if the Catalonian government was voted in on a mandate for having a referendum on the future of the region, then that DEMOCRATIC RIGHT must be given.  End.

Both sides are then free to run whatever campaign they want and people are free to vote whatever way they want, regardless of the consequences or outcome.

In the case of Scotland in 2014, so-called "project fear" (all the same bull trotted out in this thread....old people scared into thinking they wouldn't get their pensions (a lie) forced to join the Euro (nope) "experts" lying about Scotland's oil running out (lol) threats of losing it's shipbuilding contracts (nope)and the biggest kick in the teeth of all, the lie that Scotland would no longer be part of the EU (since debunked by the EU themselves) Fast forward 3 years and it's being dragged out of the EU  against it's will regardless, it's fishery industry already undergoing decimation as a bargaining chip in EU negotiations.  promised shipbuilding contracts cut down to virtually zero, trident nuclear weapons still on our doorstep, the Scottish government already spending millions to offset the worst of Tory austerity. So all that propaganda narrowly did it's job alright.

Brexit is a similar scenario. People were free to believe the leave campaign or not. The stay camp ran a shitty underwhelming campaign. People made their choice based upon all different factors. Some racism, some anti-globalization, some apathy, some with all the facts at hand, some with none. That's the basis of democracy, regardless of the outcome.

If the people of Catalonia decide they want to go it alone, that's THEIR RIGHT without being told how dumb, stupid and uninformed they are. Every Catalonian that I've heard speak (a few who came over here in 2014 actually) being erudite, intelligent, informed and passionate about their beliefs. I've yet to hear of ONE independent country that regretted their decision.

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5 minutes ago, karbatal said:

 

The Generalitat, however, gives a very different message. Oriol Junqueras said last may: "“Es imposible, no hay ningún artículo, nada, que muestre que la UE puede expulsar a uno de sus miembros” (It is impossible, there is no article in the EU legislation about expelling one of their members).   Who is lying? Well, the European Comission REPEATED yesterday that an indepentent Catalonia would be out of the EU. Artur Mas, prior last general elections in Catalonia, said this: , “Cataluña estará dentro de Europa y en el euro, y con las condiciones que tenemos hoy”. (Catalonia will be in the EU and in the euro with the same conditions as we enjoy today". And that's a lie. 

 

The same propaganda trotted out about Scotland at the time. Since told that it would have no problems at all joining the EU, in fact, it would go to the head of the queue and be the easiest entrance ever. Funny that.

Any country with any sense would go the Norway route though. The EU having proven it's corrupt ineffectiveness once again over the last few days as regards Spain. 

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Good. Then, why lying? 

Tell your voters that it will mean that process. And go for it. But don't lie. 

The main message given is that Catalonia would win16.000 million euro each year, that wouldn't have to pay to Madrid. Does it ring a bell to you, that propaganda given in the UK before brexit? 

And yet, they don't comment about: 

1. 35% of Catalanish exports go to the rest of Spain. 

2. Catalanish own debt is of 72.000 million euro. And after the independece, at least 16% of nowadays Spanish national debt (that amount to one trillion euro) would have to be paid by Catalonia. 

3. The EU disentanglement is not magical, as Theresa May very bitterly is realising now. 

That's what I have missed all these 5 years, and other important issues too. As I said Promise to Try a couple of weeks ago, I was pro-independence from the Basque Country and Catalonia during the 90s. Nowadays this is such a mess of European things and euros and all that, that I find it far more negative for the citizens. Just what I thought about the UK and the brexit. 

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"Elijah", one more personal comment and you're suspended. You've been warned.

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17 minutes ago, karbatal said:

Good. Then, why lying? 

Tell your voters that it will mean that process. And go for it. But don't lie. 

The main message given is that Catalonia would win16.000 million euro each year, that wouldn't have to pay to Madrid. Does it ring a bell to you, that propaganda given in the UK before brexit? 

And yet, they don't comment about: 

1. 35% of Catalanish exports go to the rest of Spain. 

2. Catalanish own debt is of 72.000 million euro. And after the independece, at least 16% of nowadays Spanish national debt (that amount to one trillion euro) would have to be paid by Catalonia. 

3. The EU disentanglement is not magical, as Theresa May very bitterly is realising now. 

That's what I have missed all these 5 years, and other important issues too. As I said Promise to Try a couple of weeks ago, I was pro-independence from the Basque Country and Catalonia during the 90s. Nowadays this is such a mess of European things and euros and all that, that I find it far more negative for the citizens. Just what I thought about the UK and the brexit. 

So what's the alternative? "Do as we we say, we know best, just shut up and do as you're told"

Again, run a PROPER referendum campaign and allow all these things to be discussed. Politicians lie, that's nothing new. The poor dumb ignorant populace will just have to make their decision, that's nothing new either.

I don't agree with Brexit, but it's done, the people had their say, and this MYTH that it (and Trump and le Pen etc) is all just based on countries suddenly turning mass racist and ignorant while ignoring the very real socio-economic factors is confounding.

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1 hour ago, karbatal said:

If finally this independence process takes place, this is a big opportunity for the EU to consider situations like this. Because it's absurd for the people to have to live together if they dont' want to. There has to be some "divorce" law that allows territories to disentangle. Maybe what I am now saying would mean chaos, I don't know, but I really hope this is created. What if Flandes wants to separate from Valonia? What if Veneto wants to separate from Italy? What if Scottland had gained independence a couple of years ago? 

It is incredible that the EU still considers this is an internal problem. It is not! 

But why can't people just get along? People are becoming way too full of themselves. " This is my land. Get out" way of thinking is so wrong on so many levels. I don't think it's constructive to rely on separation and division. Looks like the Wall /Trump mentality is winning. "Let's separate each other; let's go back to the "caves" we come from" ideology is rampant these days. Why can't we all rise above this bullshit and find strength in unity?

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50 minutes ago, MeakMaker said:

But why can't people just get along? People are becoming way too full of themselves. " This is my land. Get out" way of thinking is so wrong on so many levels. I don't think it's constructive to rely on separation and division. Looks like the Wall /Trump mentality is winning. "Let's separate each other; let's go back to the "caves" where we come from" ideology is rampant these days. Why can't we all rise above this bullshit and find strength in unity?

Once again, get informed. You keep giving your opinion on something you know little to nothing about. This is way more complicated and complex than that. It goes back in history as early as the 10th century, and it continues until today being the Nova planta decrees, war or the Spanish succession, the Second Spanish Republic, the Spanish Civil War, Franco's dictatorship and the Spanish transition to democracy relevant historic events. So as you can expect, it is not as simple as you seem to get it. 

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36 minutes ago, Django said:

Once again, get informed. You keep giving your opinion on something you know little to nothing about. This is way more complicated and complex than that. It goes back in history as early as the 10th century, and it continues until today being the Nova planta decrees, war or the Spanish succession, the Second Spanish Republic, the Spanish Civil War, Franco's dictatorship and the Spanish transition to democracy relevant historic events. So as you can expect, it is not as simple as you seem to get it. 

What's wrong with you people?! Once again I get reminded of how ignorant I am on the matter?!?  Jeez if ignorant people are allowed to cast a vote for an election or referendum why cant an ignorant person be part of a conversation on the bloody internet of all places??! Enough with the clever police! 

 I was only expressing yes a very simplicistic way to deal with things in these situations.. in end if we don't pick ourselves up and try to move on together as humans and build better societies even all you well informed people points of view won't change shit. Pointing the blame or taking a side won't solve the problem. People are talking about divisions in our countries, continents, governments, etc.. but then again we don't have to look any farther than this thread. Yes we have divisions. Yes we have people who don't agree with each other but it's up to us to make a difference and create a culture of unity, peace and inclusion.  

 

 

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19 minutes ago, MeakMaker said:

What's wrong with you people?! Once again I get reminded of how ignorant I am on the matter?!?  Jeez if ignorant people are allowed to cast a vote for an election or referendum why cant an ignorant person be part of a conversation on the bloody internet of all places??! Enough with the clever police! 

 I was only expressing yes a very simplicistic way to deal with things in these situations.. in end if we don't pick ourselves up and try to move on together as humans and build better societies even all you well informed people points of view won't change shit. Pointing the blame or taking a side won't solve the problem. People are talking about divisions in our countries, continents, governments, etc.. but then again we don't have to look any farther than this thread. Yes we have divisions. Yes we have people who don't agree with each other but it's up to us to make a difference and create a culture of unity, peace and inclusion.  

 

 

Again, in order to solve a problem you need to know not most but ALL about it.

Also, the fact that ignorant people can cast a vote is one of the main reasons the world is at this state. 

You are free to express your opinion of course, just don't get mad when people keep pointing out your lack of knowledge on the subject while you keep bringing your uninformed point of view on a subject that requires, at least, having a base in order to understand what is going on. 

We are not the clever police, we happen to be Spanish so we kinda get what's going on. 

The subject is not only complex itself, but as current events unfold it keeps getting more and more complicated altogether.

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The horrible thing about this situation is that is very complex politically, historically, economically but also socially. If you add some corrupt politicians both sides with zero capacity, the dish is done and serve. 

I don't know how will all this turn out, but I PRAY that the EU intervens, there's an independence, every part accepts the consequences (they will be big not only in Spain, but the whole eurozone, hence Spain being in the euro) and time to move on.

But this won't happen because our politicians (and the rest of the world, it seems) are the worse in decades and the people (in the rest of the world too ) have turned into this absurd masse of gullible creatures feeding their brains with junk from social media. 

 

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46 minutes ago, Django said:

Again, in order to solve a problem you need to know not most but ALL about it.

Also, the fact that ignorant people can cast a vote is one of the main reasons the world is at this state. 

You are free to express your opinion of course, just don't get mad when people keep pointing out your lack of knowledge on the subject while you keep bringing your uninformed point of view on a subject that requires, at least, having a base in order to understand what is going on. 

We are not the clever police, we happen to be Spanish so we kinda get what's going on. 

The subject is not only complex itself, but as current events unfold it keeps getting more and more complicated altogether.

Well I gave the solutions. It's just that people are way too self obsessed to deal with today's problems. I don't need to know the ins and outs of every situation to come with the knowledge that this worlds repeating history on a loop and if people don't change their mind and hearts then what's the point in even suggesting solutions? The international press is calling the whole thing a shame for Spain. On tv these Catalonia peeps look to be a rough bunch. Football matches are more entertaining.

Oh well, Ima leave you smart heads to discuss this topic freely with no interruptions from ignorant peeps like me. Catalonia can move to Mars as far as I'm concerned. Good to know Spain is as every bit fucked up as the rest of this world. Peace.

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50 minutes ago, karbatal said:

The horrible thing about this situation is that is very complex politically, historically, economically but also socially. If you add some corrupt politicians both sides with zero capacity, the dish is done and serve. I don't know how will all this turn out, but I PRAY that the EU intervens, there's an independence, every part accepts the consequences (they will be big not only in Spain, but the whole eurozone, hence Spain being in the euro) and time to move on.But this won't happen because our politicians (and the rest of the world, it seems) are the worse in decades and the people (in the rest of the world too ) have turned into this absurd masse of gullible creatures feeding their brains with junk from social media. 

Yeah, and its kind of strange that the King Of Aragon ruled Catalonia for a long time, then Aragon united with Castilia and then the Borbons got rid of the autonomy in line with what was happening in France. But again, if Aragon doesn't have that movement and it was the seat from where the whole eastern part of Spain was ruled, why Catalonia has it? I think its obvious: money.

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12 minutes ago, elijah said:

Yeah, and its kind of strange that the King Of Aragon ruled Catalonia for a long time before the Borbons got rid of the autonomy in line with what was happening in France. But again, if Aragon doesn't have that movement and it was the seat from where the whole eastern part of Spain was ruled, why Catalonia has it? I think its obvious: money.

The kingdom of Aragon was lost after the Catholic Kings died and their grandsom Carolus V, emperor of HIspania and Germania ruled. From then on there was no more real kingdom. Castilla and Aragon were united into what is known now as Spain, together with the new recovered Granada, which still was part of the Arabs until 1492. The parliaments in Aragon, Catalonia, Valencia and Balearic Islands still existed, until the XVIII century. First fell the Aragon Parliament and some years later (maybe 7 years later?  the Catalanish. 

Even though we were together for so many centuries, we never were the same, mind. Catalonia has always had a personality and has been itself a nationality. The case of Aragon is different because being in the border between the Aragon Kindgom and Castila Kingdom, we always tried to serve as bridge between both kingdoms. In fact, our language in Aragon, which is as old as the Spanish language or the CAtalanish language, was very soon lost and finally only spoken in the mountains. We very soon accepted Spanish because it was easier to trade with them. In Catalonia, though, people kept their language. Being further from the frontier helps too. Look at Switzerland and which language they speak depending on which country they border.

But all that is simply history, just like other countries have their history. For me, the most important thing is that when economy turned into an exchange of manufactured goods between countries, all efforts were made to create near France and in the main important ports, all the factories and build new and better ports. All that effort meant that regions who were on other parts of the country were in disadvantage. Just like the north of Sweden or the north of Norway or the South of Italy are less developed than the parts bordering with European countries. 

I can understand when somebody doesn't feel Spanish. I don't care much, because I don't feel much Spanish either, I feel much more Aragonish. I don't have much in common with somebody from Andalucia, for example. And since I was only 10 y.o. when we entered the EU and it was such a magical moment, I've always loved the EU and didn't mind much about Andalucia, flamenco or bullfighters. During the 90s my region had its own Parliament too, our own laws, different from the Spanish ones which come from the Middle Ages... We have our little traditions restaurated and we could feel we were part of Aragon again.

 I always understood separatist people But when their argument is that "Spain robs our money. Spanish are lazy cows" then it irks me. Who worked in your factories for 150 years??? Spanish people coming from other regions working in factories supported by Madrid! 

So if you want independence, sit down and start making sums to make the bill, my dear. 

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As this thread is a rare opportunity to speak about things that normally aren't mentioned, even though maybe nobody cares I will explain a bit more about Spain and the fact that we are a little Yugoslavia since 500 years. 

 
1. Spain is the mix of several kingdoms: Castilla, Aragon and Navarra. But Castilla before had swallowed other kingdoms from the north and northwest. That's why in Galicia (far nortwest) they have their own language, very simmilar to Portugese. 
 
2. Spain nowadays have 17 autonomies. With 17 parliaments. Each parliament ruling, deciding themselves about education, health, even security matters (Catalonia, Basque Country and Navarra have their own Police. In Aragón we could too, but it was too expensive and we have just some kind of little department) 
 
3. We have different languages too: Castellanish (Spanish), Catalan, Valencian (very simmilar to CAtalan), Aragonese, Basquish, Galleguish... Why, you may ask? Because after the fall of the Roman empire and the Visigoths ruling here and there, the Arabs conquered us for 700 years. They were incredibly good and beautiful Arabs, which created all kind of structures to bring water to dry zones, and who were academics giving to the world all kind of discoverings in Medicine, Astronomie... We still have their castles, many words in Spanish come from them and their hidraulic infraestructures are still in use. Even so many centuries afterwards. 
 
But in the up north they couldn't rule and there little kingdoms were created by noble Christian men and their armies, whose interest was to take territories from the Arabs and make all the territory Christian again. Catalonia was born there, as a very little part, and next to Catalonia it was Aragon. Very near, Navarra, and near Navarra other little places. Little by little, these noblemen won more and more territories until the Arabs were expelled from the Peninsulae in 1492. But this strange situation lead to a big space with several kingdoms with lots of things in common but very different too, with different languages. Some of them were united in the West (Castilla) and other in the East (Aragon). Aragon and Catalonia were united by marriage and since then we were together. But always with our own Parliament. The same with Valencia and Balearic Islands (what now is Mallorca or Ibiza). Aragon (that is, the sum of Aragon, Valencia, Catalonia, Balearic)  was a very modern kingdom, the king had to answer to the Parliaments, we were the ones that invented what now is known as Ombudsman... Machiavello's Prince was inspired in the Aragon King. The first "modern" monarch in history.
 
No matter how many centuries, we always felt different. ALWAYS. and Castillia, the kingdom that finally won everything, had something really negative: whenever a territory was controlled, all traditions were very soon erased. This is Spain now and that's why many territories feel hurt, bad or want to be out.
 
During the XIX century, other countries in Europe went through the same process. Germany and Italy went through a unification. But the difference between Germany/ Italy and Spain is that they had a common enemy in First World War and Second World War. Psichologically, if a folk is attack by a enemy, they feel united. The brand new Germany and the brand new Italy very soon created a national identity. Spain, however, was immerse in a Civil War in the XIX Century, didn't take part in IWW or IWW and suffered another Civil War in the XX Century. No enemy from the outside. Always from the inside. Then 40 years of dictature were a stupid fascist wanted to create a Spanish Race identity and tried to erase other identities. We all suffered. Sometimes Basquish or Catalanish feel as if they were the only ones suffering, but many territoires had their traditions forbidden and erased.
 
Nowadays we are a bit like Yugoslavia. United but very different one another. But, thanks to democracy, since 1978  we all can speak the language we want, we can make laws in our regions, we can control our finances in health or education... We have enough space to be satisfied. Until now.  

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