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Spain...destroying themselves from the inside

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5 minutes ago, Kim said:

LOL "bitter"? I think the word is either disgusted...shocked... or even enlightened... about the nonsense written in here. Certainly not bitter.

THE POINT IS that instead of the biased wittering on about the constitutional or democratic rightness or wrongness of the referendum itself, the true OUTRAGE is the outpouring of violence from the state against its own people. I guess you need to be non-fascist to understand that though.

If we all here are against violence and think that this situation shouldn't have taken place.... Who are you talking to?  

And to understand a bit of how confused some of us feel with all this,  let me remind you that: 

1. More than one thousand people died in Spain because of terror attacks by the separatist band ETA. Separatism is Spain for decades meant terror. 

2. That said,  it's normal to feel passionate about the issue if you live in a region stuck between Basque Country and Catalonia (my case)  and suffering from injustices because of the favoritism from Madrid to build and invest there in the past 40 years. 

3. And after five years of pure poison from separatists and the Rajoy government we are exhausted and that's what yesterday was commented here.  

That said,  now on Monday me and many other Spaniards,  want dialogue.  And in Saturday that was not the case. And that's because the Catalanish people didn't deserve what happened yesterday. 

There's no fascist here. 

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I have to think a lot of some of the things some of you have said, very interesting ideas. Other thing that karbatal is not saying isthat the pro independence people (not all the pro referendum people) want other regions of spain to be with them, like, well, karbatal´s, Aragon. Which, historically should be the other way around, Catalonia, balears, Valencia...well part of Aragon´s kingdom, and not what the pro independence are saying (all of it was catalonia for them)

Just now, karbatal said:

. More than one thousand people died in Spain because of terror attacks by the separatist band ETA. Separatism is Spain for decades meant terror. 

well, I think most of the spaniards separate the separatism from ETA very clearly, at least after 1978. before, a lot of spanish people were in favour of them (after all, they even killed the person that was going to the next Franco!)

catalonia had their own violent group, Terra Llure, but were inteligent enough to stop quite fast after franco

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Just now, karbatal said:

3. And after five years of pure poison from separatists and the Rajoy government we are exhausted and that's what yesterday was commented here.

Poisoning from the separatists? probably.But in ther cases they really have reasons to be angry with this government.we all should be angry, but thye have being the only ones doing something so radical

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2 hours ago, Raider of the lost Ark said:

May I ask why the Catalan government believes they have enough votes to declare independence (besides the constitutional problems)? 90% may have voted in favor BUT what about a quorum? From what I heard, only 50% voted. Does a quorum exists? If not, this referendum should not be considered democratic. I don't know how this works in other countries but in Germany there is always a quorum added to a referendum about important issues. Issues that affect all citizens. Usually you have to have a 66,67 percent participation. Otherwise the results will not be acknowledged. It is the same with important laws, like the Grundgesetz. It needs the absolute majority to change them. A simple majority is not enough. This all is meant to protect people, especially minorities. I think we have discussed this here many times why a referendum as part of direct democracy may not always be the best thing for democracy and why there need to be restrictions, especially in times when there is a huge disinterest in the democratic process from the general public while certain interest groups (dare I say conservatives, alt-right) are much better in mobilizing their base. There is a reason why most (well, I guess all) democratic countries have a representative democracy.

Less than 50% and that was including multiple votes by the same people...

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2 hours ago, elijah said:

By the way, one of the most irratating ppl are those like you who mistake their opinion for fact. Learn to distinguish one from the other and you ll sound like a much better person, you ll be much more liked and you may even get screwed sometimes.

LOL, it tells me to grow up, then in the next breath trots out the usual childish insults people use when they have fuck all to say. Getting laid is one thing I've never had a problem with. Freaky little conspiracy theorists like YOU tend to have problems in that department.

2 hours ago, karbatal said:

If we all here are against violence and think that this situation shouldn't have taken place.... Who are you talking to?  

And to understand a bit of how confused some of us feel with all this,  let me remind you that: 

1. More than one thousand people died in Spain because of terror attacks by the separatist band ETA. Separatism is Spain for decades meant terror. 

2. That said,  it's normal to feel passionate about the issue if you live in a region stuck between Basque Country and Catalonia (my case)  and suffering from injustices because of the favoritism from Madrid to build and invest there in the past 40 years. 

3. And after five years of pure poison from separatists and the Rajoy government we are exhausted and that's what yesterday was commented here.  

That said,  now on Monday me and many other Spaniards,  want dialogue.  And in Saturday that was not the case. And that's because the Catalanish people didn't deserve what happened yesterday. 

There's no fascist here. 

Mentioning that you disagree with state violence in passing then writing essays about the constitutional and historical issues seems very strange to me. I'm not sure how you'll feel about the fact that the views being espoused in here are the exact views I'm reading by the biggest right wing pieces of shit on social media.. Nor do I give you a much needed British history or economic or social studies lesson every time you make some ill-informed comment about Brexit. It's quite obvious where you lie with this issue. I am 100% behind the people of Catatonia and the sooner they cast of the trash the better.

43 minutes ago, Je5u5 said:

Including multiple votes by the same people...

LOL

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7 minutes ago, Kim said:

LOL, it tells me to grow up, then in the next breath trots out the usual childish insults people use when they have fuck all to say. Getting laid is one thing I've never had a problem with. Freaky little conspiracy theorists like YOU tend to have problems in that department.

Mentioning that you disagree with state violence in passing then writing essays about the constitutional and historical issues seems very strange to me. I'm not sure how you'll feel about the fact that the views being esposused in here are the exact views I'm reading by the biggest right wing pieces of shit on social media.. Nor do I give you a much needed British history or economic or social studies lesson every time you make some ill-informed comment about Brexit?. It's quite obvious where you lie with this issue. I am 100% behind the people of Catatonia and the sooner they cast of the trash the better.

LOL

Well once again you behave in an obnoxious way in this forum.  You are calling me horrible things and telling me a fascist. You know NOTHING about fascism and you didn't have your grandfather in line to be shoot by fascist troops as I've had. Nor did you have your mother begging for food because of fascists.  You know SHIT about me either.  I've tried to be comprehensive with you but you,  once again,  show that periodic strange attitude where you behave incredibly bad.  

If you ever call me fascist I will report you in this forum.  

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15 minutes ago, Kim said:

LOL, it tells me to grow up, then in the next breath trots out the usual childish insults people use when they have fuck all to say. Getting laid is one thing I've never had a problem with. Freaky little conspiracy theorists like YOU tend to have problems in that department.

Mentioning that you disagree with state violence in passing then writing essays about the constitutional and historical issues seems very strange to me. I'm not sure how you'll feel about the fact that the views being espoused in here are the exact views I'm reading by the biggest right wing pieces of shit on social media.. Nor do I give you a much needed British history or economic or social studies lesson every time you make some ill-informed comment about Brexit. It's quite obvious where you lie with this issue. I am 100% behind the people of Catatonia and the sooner they cast of the trash the better.

LOL

Just an example.

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18 minutes ago, Je5u5 said:

Just an example.

Right, because there's nothing strange whatsoever about this person advertising the fact that he's supposedly voting multiple times in multiple voting stations. Nice bit of state propaganda. I'd love to post some more pics of women being dragged around by the hair by your police officers, but I can't be fucked.

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I really don't know much about the issue but if I can kind of make comparisons would it be as if Scotland left the UK or Northen Italy leaves Italy or something down the line? I didn't even know Catalonia existed lol Always thought of Barcelona being in Spain not specifically in any known region (Would be as to say Milan is in Lombardia or Birmingham is in the West Midlands. Nobody knows those things). Why do these people want independence? What's the point of going alone? In the UK there's always talks of Scotland wanting independence or I remember they wanted Northern Italy to leave Italy lol I think it's some nationalistic crap. The I'm better I don't need you divisive politics crap talk. Wouldn't it be still part of the EU after all? Or they also want a Catalonexit? lol 

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They say that only 50 % voted etc .Didn't you watch many people that were dragged out of the voting ballots and the ballot boxes that were stolen by the police forces? and what about the people that were terrified to go and vote ? It felt like this referendum happened in some communist country of the late 80s .If this is called democracy then something very rotten is happening in the so called EUROPEAN UNION lol

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4 minutes ago, MeakMaker said:

I really don't know much about the issue but if I can kind of make comparisons would it be as if Scotland left the UK or Northen Italy leaves Italy or something down the line? I didn't even know Catalonia existed lol Always thought of Barcelona being in Spain not specifically in any known region (Would be as to say Milan is in Lombardia or Birmingham is in the West Midlands. Nobody knows those things). Why do these people want independence? What's the point of going alone? In the UK there's always talks of Scotland wanting independence or I remember they wanted Northern Italy to leave Italy lol I think it's some nationalistic crap. The I'm better I don't need you divisive politics crap talk. Wouldn't it be still part of the EU after all? Or they also want a Catalonexit? lol 

Staggering level of ignorance.

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1 minute ago, sotos8 said:

They say that only 50 % voted etc .Didn't you watch many people that were dragged out of the voting ballots and the ballot boxes that were stolen by the police forces? and what about the people that were terrified to go and vote ? It felt like this referendum happened in some communist country of the late 80s .If this is called democracy then something very rotten is happening in the so called EUROPEAN UNION lol

Good point. I would be afraid to vote aswell with such a brute police dragging elderly people with blood on their faces and fingers crushed.

Anyway, even with so much violence a lot people indeed voted the yes option. The government now have to deal with the possibility of a full blown rebellion as catalans are already planning a general strike in protest.

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1 hour ago, Kim said:

Right, because there's nothing strange whatsoever about this person advertising the fact that he's supposedly voting multiple times in multiple voting stations. Nice bit of state propaganda. I'd love to post some more pics of women being dragged around by the hair by your police officers, but I can't be fucked.

There's nothing strange. This person was probabky trying to make a point showing there was no control whatsoever and anybody who felt like it could vote multiple times. That's all.

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11 hours ago, Kim said:

Staggering level of ignorance.

I already said I don't know much about the matter. No need to point that out mate. Of course you would disagree with me. You always do. It's a given.  😂 But instead of pointing out my ignorance. You could explain what actually is going on. Of course I'm against police brutality. But I wasn't talking about that. Was talking about this part of Spain all of a sudden wanting independence.

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13 minutes ago, MeakMaker said:

Was talking about this part of Spain all of a sudden wanting independence.

That's the point. They have been seeking independence for ages.This is not something all of sudden new, its a process of decades exploding right now.

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48 minutes ago, Je5u5 said:

There's nothing strange. This person was probabky trying to make a point showing there was no control whatsoever and anybody who felt like it could vote multiple times. That's all.

So these NO voters are voting multiple times (or claiming to) are they? Even more reason to discount THEIR votes. It works both ways afterall. 

Of course if Catalonia was just granted a proper referendum as is there democratic right, then none of this bullshit would be an issue would it?

40 minutes ago, MeakMaker said:

I already said I know much about the matter. No need to point that out mate. Of course you would disagree with me. You always do. It's a given.  😂 But instead of pointing out my ignorance. You could explain what actually is going on. Of course I'm against police brutality. But I wasn't talking about that. Was talking about this part of Spain all of a sudden wanting independence.

Because, Meak me old mucker, there's a whole lot of information right there in the thread which maybe would have prevented you the embarrassment of comparing Catalonia  to Birmingham and the West Midlands or comparing the civic and left of centre nationalism of Scotland (that's been governed by a nationalist party for 10 years already) that's all about a fairer more inclusive society and breaking away from the insular and right wing racist menace engulfing the rest of the UK as it jumps off a Brexit cliff that it didn't vote for. Or the discounting of numerous countries like Estonia, Latvia, Norway, Czech republic, Slovakia, Jamaica,  Algeria or any other country that gained it's own independence instead of just saying "what's the point in splitting up...better together yay!!!?"

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54 minutes ago, Kim said:

So these NO voters are voting multiple times (or claiming to) are they? Even more reason to discount THEIR votes. It works both ways afterall. 

Of course if Catalonia was just granted a proper referendum as is there democratic right, then none of this bullshit would be an issue would it?

Because, Meak me old mucker, there's a whole lot of information right there in the thread which maybe would have prevented you the embarrassment of comparing Catalonia  to Birmingham and the West Midlands or comparing the civic and left of centre nationalism of Scotland (that's been governed by a nationalist party for 10 years already) that's all about a fairer more inclusive society and breaking away from the insular and right wing racist menace engulfing the rest of the UK as it jumps off a Brexit cliff that it didn't vote for. Or the discounting of numerous countries like Estonia, Latvia, Norway, Czech republic, Slovakia, Jamaica,  Algeria or any other country that gained it's own independence instead of just saying "what's the point in splitting up...better together yay!!!?"

I used Birmingham in the West Midlands as an example to actually expose my ignorance. I stated I never even heard of Catalonia before. I always thought of Barcelona being in Spain not paying much attention to its actual area. I meant to say forgive my ignorance but the way I see it all these big major cities are known to be part of a big nation. People will know that Milan is in Italy for example. But how many would know it's in Lombardy region? Same goes for Birmingham. Most people would know it's in England but how many would know it's actually in the West Midlands county. I was referring to the geographical aspect of it. I wasn't talking about their political situation I was only showcasing my ignorance. I see on the news these people in Barcelona shouting Catalonia Catalonia Catalania... and I'm thinking Shut up nobody knows where that even is. They look ridiculous. It's the way they expose their supremacy thinking I just can't take it. For all I care they can be independent from planet earth. I find them insufferable. 

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2 hours ago, MeakMaker said:

 I see on the news these people in Barcelona shouting Catalonia Catalonia Catalania... and I'm thinking Shut up nobody knows where that even is. They look ridiculous. It's the way they expose their supremacy thinking I just can't take it. For all I care they can be independent from planet earth. I find them insufferable. 

Wow.

Personally I was a little more concerned about them getting their heads kicked in myself. 

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2 hours ago, MeakMaker said:

I used Birmingham in the West Midlands as an example to actually expose my ignorance. I stated I never even heard of Catalonia before. I always thought of Barcelona being in Spain not paying much attention to its actual area. I meant to say forgive my ignorance but the way I see it all these big major cities are known to be part of a big nation. People will know that Milan is in Italy for example. But how many would know it's in Lombardy region? Same goes for Birmingham. Most people would know it's in England but how many would know it's actually in the West Midlands county. I was referring to the geographical aspect of it. I wasn't talking about their political situation I was only showcasing my ignorance. I see on the news these people in Barcelona shouting Catalonia Catalonia Catalania... and I'm thinking Shut up nobody knows where that even is. They look ridiculous. It's the way they expose their supremacy thinking I just can't take it. For all I care they can be independent from planet earth. I find them insufferable. 

They look ridiculous because you don't know where Catalonia is? Ok. 

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The amount of non-coverage that this is getting re police and government brutality towards people voting is shameful. Hardly mentioned in our mainstream media here. It says something in the worst possible way when I read more about this on a music forum than in the papers and news.  The scenes of people being bashed by police for their democratic right to vote should never happen. 

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2 hours ago, MeakMaker said:

I used Birmingham in the West Midlands as an example to actually expose my ignorance. I stated I never even heard of Catalonia before. I always thought of Barcelona being in Spain not paying much attention to its actual area. I meant to say forgive my ignorance but the way I see it all these big major cities are known to be part of a big nation. People will know that Milan is in Italy for example. But how many would know it's in Lombardy region? Same goes for Birmingham. Most people would know it's in England but how many would know it's actually in the West Midlands county. I was referring to the geographical aspect of it. I wasn't talking about their political situation I was only showcasing my ignorance. I see on the news these people in Barcelona shouting Catalonia Catalonia Catalania... and I'm thinking Shut up nobody knows where that even is. They look ridiculous. It's the way they expose their supremacy thinking I just can't take it. For all I care they can be independent from planet earth. I find them insufferable. 

:lmao: 

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3 hours ago, MeakMaker said:

I used Birmingham in the West Midlands as an example to actually expose my ignorance. I stated I never even heard of Catalonia before. I always thought of Barcelona being in Spain not paying much attention to its actual area. I meant to say forgive my ignorance but the way I see it all these big major cities are known to be part of a big nation. People will know that Milan is in Italy for example. But how many would know it's in Lombardy region? Same goes for Birmingham. Most people would know it's in England but how many would know it's actually in the West Midlands county. I was referring to the geographical aspect of it. I wasn't talking about their political situation I was only showcasing my ignorance. I see on the news these people in Barcelona shouting Catalonia Catalonia Catalania... and I'm thinking Shut up nobody knows where that even is. They look ridiculous. It's the way they expose their supremacy thinking I just can't take it. For all I care they can be independent from planet earth. I find them insufferable. 

 

Maybe it's better to get thoroughly informed on the matter before showing that mixture of ignorance and boldness. 

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1 hour ago, Jazzy Jan said:

The amount of non-coverage that this is getting re police and government brutality towards people voting is shameful. Hardly mentioned in our mainstream media here. It says something in the worst possible way when I read more about this on a music forum than in the papers and news.  The scenes of people being bashed by police for their democratic right to vote should never happen. 

But the referendum was forbidden and deemed unconstitutional. Maybe it has something to do with it? In Bulgaria its hugely covered. Its the first news and in general the people are supporting Madrid, but don't support Rahoi using violence.

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Just now, Kim said:

Oh really? Not everyone has your obsession with "constitution". I don't suppose many stayed at home because they didn't want to risk getting their heads kicked in?

 

believe me, for some people in spain, and in catalunya (and basque country...) the constitution is the *.and, as it happens with the * and the catholics, only they know how to read it, the meaning of everything...and if you think in a different way, you are  a terrorist, and idiot, or want spain to be venezuela or iran! it´s crazy. they don´t do what the law says, but when you mention the unity of spain, the get really angry. There have been peoloe marching in favour of spain, singing fascist songs! of course, thanks to god or to people´s intelligence, they were a minority, but the police didn´t appear there to tell them to shut the fuck up with the songs.

Half of the catalonians didn´t go to vote, because they didn´t consider the referendum legal.And the pro referendum people know that. That´s why now they have problems between them, apparently, some want to declare independence, but others don´t see they have a clear mayority. Hopefully they will be wise enough to keep things peaceful. Yes, they have been trying to expell the spanish police from catalonia last night.But nobody was hurt.

About the woman that only wanted to talk in catalan to somebody here...everytime I go to barcelona and somebody tells me something in their language , I tell them that I´m not form there and they talk to me in spanish. Of course, sometimes catalan is so easy to understand for a spanish speaker that is not a problem.And I always wonder, if we all learned a little bit of all the languages in the schools, people will respect each others cultures more in spain. But the PP voters hate catalan people talking in their language...

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2 hours ago, Jazzy Jan said:

The amount of non-coverage that this is getting re police and government brutality towards people voting is shameful.

In US/UK/AUS media, maybe, but there is coverage of it in Mexico. Ovbviously, as the relation with Spain is still there, after 5+ centuries. The situation with Catalunya is complicated for sure, and the Spanish gov't won't back off from trying to rerain one of its little goldmines. I remember reading a couple of weeks ago a note on a journal mentioning people were indeed confused and not entirely sure about voting in the referendum. Whether it was because of a sense of fear, I don't know. The response by the Spanish gov't, I beleive (and have been told by friends living in Barcelona), will accekerate the support and desire for an independentist movement that has already kncreasingly garnered both traction and a solid structure. Anyway, these are my two cents on this.

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Just now, Icykiller said:

In US/UK/AUS media, maybe, but there is coverage of it in Mexico. Ovbviously, as the relation with Spain is still there, after 5+ centuries. The situation with Catalunya is complicated for sure, and the Spanish gov't won't back off from trying to rerain one of its little goldmines. I remember reading a couple of weeks ago a note on a journal mentioning people were indeed confused and not entirely sure about voting in the referendum. Whether it was because of a sense of fear, I don't know. The response by the Spanish gov't, I beleive (and have been told by friends living in Barcelona), will accekerate the support and desire for an independentist movement that has already kncreasingly garnered both traction and a solid structure. Anyway, these are my two cents on this.

I don´t think it was fear.Apparently they wren´t expecting the police to do what they are supposed to their job...(whereas I was expecting dead people). a lot of people didn´t vote because it wasn´t legal and cristal clear. Other people, when they saw what police where doing, they went to vote, even with a spanish flag, to shoe that they were against what police where doing.

I really believe PP´s government has been treating without any respect catalunya´s situation.and, also to their police, to the spanih police. They have treated them as an army to invade catalonia trowing them against the civilians,  they have make them look ridiculous keeping them in a ship with the Looney toons on the walls, and, this sunday, they have had not enough of them on the streets, and sometimes they were on an ambush surrounded by people. That same disrespect showed to catalonia, has been showed to the spanish police by the government. But enough about defending the police!!!! how come everybody is from aragon here??!!!

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Just now, karbatal said:

 you didn't have your grandfather in line to be shoot by fascist troops as I've had. Nor did you have your mother begging for food because of fascists.  You know SHIT about me either. 

see? I don´t feel spanish. I want my country to be independent. But I surely can be happy in a estate full of anti fascist people like karbi.after a cristal clear referendum.with pacts that people want to  respect (the regional constitution of the basque country hasn´t been completed in nearly 40 years, and not only by the PP), with respect, with people trying to understand each other, with people that want to help each other. A common wealth estate founded on respect,humanity, and not fear, imposition and lies.

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^Interesting @promise to try, and yes, not every Catalan supports this independentist movement, hence why many then did not vote. But as it stands now, or at least how it is seen from the outside, the violence somehow justified the independence movement. If nothing had happened, and the referendum went along as just an exercise of political expression, I wonder if perhaps Rajoy would have had more leverage for negotiation. Only time would tell what follows, but all my support to the Catalans, regardless of what they decide.

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34 minutes ago, promise to try said:

see? I don´t feel spanish. I want my country to be independent. But I surely can be happy in a estate full of anti fascist people like karbi.after a cristal clear referendum.with pacts that people want to  respect (the regional constitution of the basque country hasn´t been completed in nearly 40 years, and not only by the PP), with respect, with people trying to understand each other, with people that want to help each other. A common wealth estate founded on respect,humanity, and not fear, imposition and lies.

El problema es que creo que muchos nos sentimos incómodos en España :lol: Siempre he pensado que somos como Yugoslavia y unidos a la fuerza. 

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