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Spain...destroying themselves from the inside

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Just now, LSD said:

Even if people want to cling to constitutionality for dear life and wax poetic about the illegality of it all, surely declaring the whole thing illegitimate post-facto would be better (in virtually every sense) than sending riot police to steal ballot boxes and beat the shit out of old ladies in the streets.

yes, but instead the sent a ship full of police with a looney toons painting on its wall

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The independists won the image war. This was handled so badly by the spanish government that people are now pro separatists because we don't understand a damn thing about spanish politics but we see images of the police beating elderly women covered in blood. 

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6 hours ago, runa said:

 

No matter if you're for or against that referendum, you must let people decide for their destiny. 

 

 

That's great. But why the international community decided that this wasn't applicable to Crimeans in 2014 when they wanted to split from Ukraine?

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8 hours ago, Django said:

I am so ashamed of my country that I don't wanna be part of it anymore. I seriously want to leave. The percentage of ignorants and retareded scum in Spain is so high... 

 

Our president must go find Joanne. NOW. 

I feel the same.  

 

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6 hours ago, Nessie said:

That's great. But why the international community decided that this wasn't applicable to Crimeans in 2014 when they wanted to split from Ukraine?

Another can of worms :lmao:

That's what I said before: every independence situation is different and couldn't be judged easily.  

 

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6 hours ago, Roland Barthes said:

The independists won the image war. This was handled so badly by the spanish government that people are now pro separatists because we don't understand a damn thing about spanish politics but we see images of the police beating elderly women covered in blood. 

The Madrid government is the worst.  It's like a factory of independentists. My own mother told me "they should have independence and we should go with them and create again the Aragon Kingdom" !!!!! 

With this horrible situation I wouldn't wonder if we go in that direction.  

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Just now, karbatal said:

The Madrid government is the worst.  It's like a factory of independentists. My own mother told me "they should have independence and we should go with them and create again the Aragon Kingdom" !!!!! 

With this horrible situation I wouldn't wonder if we go in that direction.  

yes, even people in other parts of spain prefer to go with catalonia than to stay with some kind of spanish people!

anyways, as somebody has said, pro referemdum people won the image war yesterday. But this next week will be very long.yesterday was, in my opnion, an ordago, I don´t know if that expression exists in english. Yesterday they were showing who had the biggest dick! now that both have shown how big their dick is, they have to manage what to do with it!

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2 hours ago, promise to try said:

yes, even people in other parts of spain prefer to go with catalonia than to stay with some kind of spanish people!

anyways, as somebody has said, pro referemdum people won the image war yesterday. But this next week will be very long.yesterday was, in my opnion, an ordago, I don´t know if that expression exists in english. Yesterday they were showing who had the biggest dick! now that both have shown how big their dick is, they have to manage what to do with it!

 

Well, things will go worse because nobody WANTS to sit down and get an arrangement. But I doubt Mariano Rajoy will want that. And the Catalanish government doesn't want that either. 

It is clear that something should be done and there is the Government saying stupid things all the time. 

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So I have read that it directly contradicts the Constitution. Also: can it really be considered democratic? There were no foreign watchers, no control over the bulletins of other parties opposing the cessation etc. If the Spanish government follows art. 155 of the Constitution, no cessation would follow...

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14 minutes ago, elijah said:

So I have read that it directly contradicts the Constitution. Also: can it really be considered democratic? There were no foreign watchers, no control over the bulletins of other parties opposing the cessation etc. If the Spanish government follows art. 155 of the Constitution, no cessation would follow...

At this point, the Spanish government should do what it should have been done YEARS AND YEARS AGO. Allow a referendum. But a real one. With real information and explaining perfectly

1. Will Catalonia be part of the EU?

2. Will Catalonia have the euro? 

3. Will Catalonia take responsibility of the part of the national debt corresponding to the population and territory? 

4. Will Catalonia be able to pay the retirement pension money to millions of Spaniards who have worked there but nowadays live in their origin place? 

If they are going to do another referendum saying that "we will be richer because we will have 15.000 million euro more every year" and don't answer those questions above or have no idea about it, I don't think it is fair for the more than 4 million non-independent people living in Catalonia, having to face the consequences. 

But, if the EU and Spain, along with the CAtalonian government, are able to stablish some route paper, that would be the best decision.

But of course IT WON'T HAPPEN

Because then the media would have to speak about other things happening in Spain. For example, the fact that 40.000 million euro given to the banks are not going to be given back. Or the fact that the unemployment not only is a big problem, the quality of employment in Spain is nowadays gone to the pits. And what about all the illegal financiation of the party in the Government? And the fact that the money for the retirement pension is nowadays GONE and there's no money for the future? Not to mention all the money that Catalanish independent politicians have in Switzerland after it was robbed from the Catalanish people...

Ummm, what will the Government in Madrid and Barcelona choose?????? 

Resultado de imagen de choices gif

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If the Spanish goverment are refusing to accept the referendum result,

Why did they feel they see the need to violently baton innocent people? There actions have turned world opinion against them And the Catalan people will never forget,Push even more for there independence.

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1 hour ago, elijah said:

So I have read that it directly contradicts the Constitution. Also: can it really be considered democratic? There were no foreign watchers, no control over the bulletins of other parties opposing the cessation etc. If the Spanish government follows art. 155 of the Constitution, no cessation would follow...

 

The Spanish government is the first one who contradicts the constitution. They only use it when it's convenient to them and then wipe their filthy asses with it when it is also convenient to them. Everybody's talking about the art. 155 but where's my right to a decent housing, a decent job and a decent salary? that's also in our constitution and they just don't give a shit. In fact, they rule against it. 

 

Seriously, fuck our government, our constitution and our country. It deserves to be destroyed. 

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3 hours ago, BrendanT1993 said:

If the Spanish goverment are refusing to accept the referendum result,

Why did they feel they see the need to violently baton innocent people? There actions have turned world opinion against them And the Catalan people will never forget,Push even more for there independence.

EXACTLY! 

Mariano Rajoy is the worst president ever. Simply stupid. 

But he has ALL the media on his favour. ALL. You can't imagine how much harm that's doing for newspapers, for example. People are stopping buying newspapers not only because of the paper demise, but also because it's like another reality. for example, the newspaper where I work doesn't have ANY SINGLE REFERENCE about the people harmed yesterday in the front page. 

As Iholdi ( Promise to Try) has said, it's all about the elites in all Spain. In Basque Country and Catalonia too. Those elites want to protect themselves and all parties claiming to have changes are labelled as radicals or directly antisystem. They link for example the new political party Podemos to Venezuela, directly explaining that if we vote for Podemos ( I did, by the way) we will be voting to have our country destroyed as Venezuela. :lmao:

And people are SO STUPID. Those tricks work! 

In Catalonia the newsfeed are going in another direction. The elites are pro-referendum because it diverted all the atention about the fact that they have been stealing money for the past 30 years. Millions and millions and millions. 

And people are SO STUPID, again.

The thing is that with all the stupidity, more and more people in Catalonia want to be independent. Who wouldn't???? Since the last national elections I decided to look for jobs abroad. I want to leave this country because I can't stand the stupid people. 

 

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Just now, karbatal said:

 

Well, things will go worse because nobody WANTS to sit down and get an arrangement. But I doubt Mariano Rajoy will want that. And the Catalanish government doesn't want that either. 

It is clear that something should be done and there is the Government saying stupid things all the time. 

we should change governments. In both countries. or whatever the hell they / we are. we need elections now!

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IMO you don't need to be an expert on independence or issues of sovereignty or constitutional change to know that beating the stuffing out of peaceful protesters is not ok. The 'legality' or otherwise of the referendum is irrelevant to that extent - the power of the State (whether it be Catalonia or Madrid) doesn't extend to oppressing citizens and battering old ladies with their hands up around the head.

So this whole pussyfooting about over Spanish sovereignty is a pain in the arse - it doesn't matter if those people were trying to vote in a referendum or protesting the lack of snacks in their local shop, shouldn't the Spanish government be called out by everyone for terrorising people?

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Just now, karbatal said:

EXACTLY! 

Mariano Rajoy is the worst president ever. Simply stupid. 

But he has ALL the media on his favour. ALL. You can't imagine how much harm that's doing for newspapers, for example. People are stopping buying newspapers not only because of the paper demise, but also because it's like another reality. for example, the newspaper where I work doesn't have ANY SINGLE REFERENCE about the people harmed yesterday in the front page. 

 

 

because the owners of the newspapers, radios and televisions are part of that elite,as the banks or the energhy businesses.They don´t want anything to be changed. and yes, we have been suffering some weird things in the last years. everytime somebody complained about any topic, you had a journalist telling you VENEZUELA!!! IRAN!!!! it´s been so sad that sometimes was funny."what is happening with the public medicare in madrid? why are you selling everything?"shut the fuck up!!!!!!! do you want us to be Iran? venezuela???"

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Spanish politics are very complicated and separatists are a bit crazy. I used to spend week ends in Catalunya because i grew up 4 hours away by car so week ends in Barcelona in the spring were not unusual. In fact that's where i bought the first album when i was a kid hence why i have the spanish edition lol. I remember people refusing to talk to us in spanish. When i was 17 i remember spending the weekend in Roses where a friend from school had a flat and an old lady running after us in the street screaming at us in catalan because we told her we did not understand what she was saying and if she could speak spanish. 

(i had the same experience the next year in Quebec when i wanted to buy cigarettes and asked for Lucky Strikes, they had then (i don't know if it has changed) only cigarettes from Quebec and Canada. The guy screamed at me and my friend in french "We have the  101 law here, we're not gonna be invaded by Disney like you". I swear, we waited to cross the frontier by car (we drove there from NY) and stopped at the first gas station to buy cigarettes. we spent 3 days without smoking not because they did not have the cigarettes we wanted but because the guy really scared us so much he screamed and yelled. 

Separatists are totally crazy.

@karbatalIn fact i don't know if i'm 1/3 catalano or from Aragon. My father's mother family was from the other side of the Pyrenees but i could never figure out exactly where, my great aunt in Fort Lauderdale once told me we originated from Hecho but i'm not sure. My father used to say he was basque and he spoke it. 

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May I ask why the Catalan government believes they have enough votes to declare independence (besides the constitutional problems)? 90% may have voted in favor BUT what about a quorum? From what I heard, only 50% voted. Does a quorum exists? If not, this referendum should not be considered democratic. I don't know how this works in other countries but in Germany there is always a quorum added to a referendum about important issues. Issues that affect all citizens. Usually you have to have a 66,67 percent participation. Otherwise the results will not be acknowledged. It is the same with important laws, like the Grundgesetz. It needs the absolute majority to change them. A simple majority is not enough. This all is meant to protect people, especially minorities. I think we have discussed this here many times why a referendum as part of direct democracy may not always be the best thing for democracy and why there need to be restrictions, especially in times when there is a huge disinterest in the democratic process from the general public while certain interest groups (dare I say conservatives, alt-right) are much better in mobilizing their base. There is a reason why most (well, I guess all) democratic countries have a representative democracy.

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28 minutes ago, BrendanT1993 said:

IMO you don't need to be an expert on independence or issues of sovereignty or constitutional change to know that beating the stuffing out of peaceful protesters is not ok. The 'legality' or otherwise of the referendum is irrelevant to that extent - the power of the State (whether it be Catalonia or Madrid) doesn't extend to oppressing citizens...

This is the point we were making. Of course these people weren't even protesters, they were simply lining up to vote. Sometimes sitting on the ground or singing before police in riot gear beat the shit out of them.

And now we have everyone in a country being called stupid and dumb and unable to comprehend the basics of economics or called crazy because of a personal experience someone had with a "separatist" as a kid. 

SMH.

 

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30 minutes ago, Raider of the lost Ark said:

May I ask why the Catalan government believes they have enough votes to declare independence (besides the constitutional problems)? 90% may have voted in favor BUT what about a quorum? From what I heard, only 50% voted. Does a quorum exists? If not, this referendum should not be considered democratic. I don't know how this works in other countries but in Germany there is always a quorum added to a referendum about important issues. Issues that affect all citizens. Usually you have to have a 66,67 percent participation. Otherwise the results will not be acknowledged. It is the same with important laws, like the Grundgesetz. It needs the absolute majority to change them. A simple majority is not enough. This all is meant to protect people, especially minorities. I think we have discussed this here many times why a referendum as part of direct democracy may not always be the best thing for democracy and why there need to be restrictions, especially in times when there is a huge disinterest in the democratic process from the general public while certain interest groups (dare I say conservatives, alt-right) are much better in mobilizing their base. There is a reason why most (well, I guess all) democratic countries have a representative democracy.

I agree with all that you ve said. And indeed for such questions as the Catalonia one or the Brexit one the turn up should be 67 percent or even more, because basically those decision would define your future for a long time. And in this case - in Catalonia, its under 50 percent, its like 42 percent turn up. So in any case it should be invalid, because the data is for under half of the population of the region. And its obvious that those that were against secession most probably stayed at home, because they believed the central government that the referendum was unconstitutional.

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1 hour ago, Roland Barthes said:

Spanish politics are very complicated and separatists are a bit crazy. I used to spend week ends in Catalunya because i grew up 4 hours away by car so week ends in Barcelona in the spring were not unusual. In fact that's where i bought the first album when i was a kid hence why i have the spanish edition lol. I remember people refusing to talk to us in spanish. When i was 17 i remember spending the weekend in Roses where a friend from school had a flat and an old lady running after us in the street screaming at us in catalan because we told her we did not understand what she was saying and if she could speak spanish. 

(i had the same experience the next year in Quebec when i wanted to buy cigarettes and asked for Lucky Strikes, they had then (i don't know if it has changed) only cigarettes from Quebec and Canada. The guy screamed at me and my friend in french "We have the  101 law here, we're not gonna be invaded by Disney like you". I swear, we waited to cross the frontier by car (we drove there from NY) and stopped at the first gas station to buy cigarettes. we spent 3 days without smoking not because they did not have the cigarettes we wanted but because the guy really scared us so much he screamed and yelled. 

Separatists are totally crazy.

@karbatalIn fact i don't know if i'm 1/3 catalano or from Aragon. My father's mother family was from the other side of the Pyrenees but i could never figure out exactly where, my great aunt in Fort Lauderdale once told me we originated from Hecho but i'm not sure. My father used to say he was basque and he spoke it. 

OMG Echo or Hecho is in Aragon!!!!!!! It's the province called Huesca.  

That's like one hour and half by car from my city!!!!

Oh I feel so happy.  Just like when we discovered here that Geri Halliwell mother was from Huesca too!!!! 

But maybe your family move from Hecho to a village near where Basque is spoken!???  That's so great 

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18 minutes ago, elijah said:

And its obvious that those that were against secession most probably stayed at home, because they believed the central government that the referendum was unconstitutional.

Oh really? Not everyone has your obsession with "constitution". I don't suppose many stayed at home because they didn't want to risk getting their heads kicked in?

What part of the state using violence against its own people being WRONG (nevermind non-constitutional) do you people not get?

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52 minutes ago, Kim said:

This is the point we were making. Of course these people weren't even protesters, they were simply lining up to vote. Sometimes sitting on the ground or singing before police in riot gear beat the shit out of them.

And now we have everyone in a country being called stupid and dumb and unable to comprehend the basics of economics or called crazy because of a personal experience someone had with a "separatist" as a kid. 

SMH.

 

Why are you so bitter?  This is a complicated issue for us Spaniards and also for people like Promise To Try, who doesn't consider himself Spanish either, but Basque, and he knows how someone wanting to be independent feels.  

We are commenting here ideas,  bringing history and yesterday was a day really difficult here in Spain.  I have changed opinions in the last 24 hours,  for example,  knowing really what happened in Barcelona and the lame excuse given by Rajoy.  

I wish another user from Barcelona were here to enrich this thread. 

But let's not be bitter. And if yesterday anybody here said anything stupid,  understand that the situation was not easy in Spain and we all are humans after all!  

So let it go. 

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3 minutes ago, Kim said:

Oh really? Not everyone has your obsession with "constitution". I don't suppose many stayed at home because they didn't want to risk getting their heads kicked in?

What part of the state using violence against its own people being WRONG (nevermind non-constitutional) do you people not get?

EVERYONE HERE IS AGAINST THE VIOLENCE!  

Nobody here supports the horrible behaviour by some policemen.  Just the same that separatists surely don't support the attacks on agents resulting in many of them injured too. 

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1 minute ago, karbatal said:

Why are you so bitter?  This is a complicated issue for us Spaniards and also for people like Promise To Try, who doesn't consider himself Spanish either, but Basque, and he knows how someone wanting to be independent feels.  

We are commenting here ideas,  bringing history and yesterday was a day really difficult here in Spain.  I have changed opinions in the last 24 hours,  for example,  knowing really what happened in Barcelona and the lame excuse given by Rajoy.  

I wish another user from Barcelona were here to enrich this thread. 

But let's not be bitter. And if yesterday anybody here said anything stupid,  understand that the situation was not easy in Spain and we all are humans after all!  

So let it go. 

LOL "bitter"? I think the word is either disgusted...shocked... or even enlightened... about the nonsense written in here. Certainly not bitter.

1 minute ago, karbatal said:

EVERYONE HERE IS AGAINST THE VIOLENCE!  

Nobody here supports the horrible behaviour by some policemen.  Just the same that separatists surely don't support the attacks on agents resulting in many of them injured too. 

THE POINT IS that instead of the biased wittering on about the constitutional or democratic rightness or wrongness of the referendum itself, the true OUTRAGE is the outpouring of violence from the state against its own people. I guess you need to be non-fascist to understand that though.

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31 minutes ago, Kim said:

Oh really? Not everyone has your obsession with "constitution". I don't suppose many stayed at home because they didn't want to risk getting their heads kicked in?

What part of the state using violence against its own people being WRONG (nevermind non-constitutional) do you people not get?

Well the rule of law is one of the guiding principles of Europe, like self determination, so why are you so surprised? Obviously the very same Catalonians have already voted on that very same constitution, which they are so eager to step on now that they are richer and the other parts of Spain are poorer. But really they fail to understand that they are richer with the collective help of all Spaniards... And the ppl that really wanted secession most probably voted. And again, you fail to gasp that no-one here supports the violence. I, personally, am totally against it. The Spanish government could have allowed the referendum and simply say it doesn't recognize the results, because its unconstitutional (they already stated that). And its not even representative, because its under 50 percent who voted.

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2 minutes ago, Kim said:

LOL "bitter"? I think the word is either disgusted...shocked... or even enlightened... about the nonsense written in here. Certainly not bitter.

THE POINT IS that instead of the biased wittering on about the constitutional or democratic rightness or wrongness of the referendum itself, the true OUTRAGE is the outpouring of violence from the state against its own people. I guess you need to be non-fascist to understand that though.

Well, ok, but aren't you over 15? There are other oppinions. Respect them and act civilized. You sound like a fascist, sorry.

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1 minute ago, elijah said:

Well, ok, but aren't you over 15? There are other oppinions. Respect them and act civilized. You sound like a fascist, sorry.

What if I don't respect an opinion? I will say if I don't , just as you are free to say whatever you want. I've noted your political stances for some time now. And no, I don't respect them WHATSOEVER.

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7 minutes ago, Kim said:

What if I don't respect an opinion? I will say if I don't , just as you are free to say whatever you want. I've noted your political stances for some time now. And no, I don't respect them WHATSOEVER.

And I care sooo fucking much. I never paid attention to your political stance and you, in general, and obviously I haven't missed much. Take a chill pill and grow up.

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By the way, one of the most irratating ppl are those like you who mistake their opinion for fact. Learn to distinguish one from the other and you ll sound like a much better person, you ll be much more liked and you may even get screwed sometimes.

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