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Spain...destroying themselves from the inside

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1 hour ago, Kim said:

Look, I don't know enough about Spanish and Catalan politics to have an opinion about whether independence is a good idea or not. But I know that democracy is a good idea, and the draconian attempts of the Spanish government to suppress the referendum (ludicrously under-reported in the UK media, particularly broadcast media) are a terrifying throwback to its fascist past. Nor am I comfortable with this "poor stupid uneducated people who don't know any better" rhetoric being put forward for every democratic process across the world like they are all one and the same.

It's no surprise that the mainstream media are united in their silence along with the  Establishment’s NGO’s on the shameful  repression of democracy in Catalonia. The Establishment all round the world seeks to enforce its will and protect it's vast wealth for a tiny minority through manipulating the institutions of society. The aim, ALWAYS, is to maintain that status quo. The last thing they like to see is rational popular discontent or unrest within the European core of that neo liberal agenda. So when you see that Establishment, plus the entire mainstream media united against the ordinary people as we see today in Catalonia, it is a no-brainer which side I (as an outsider) should be on. I also understand there's a shocking law making it illegal to film Spanish police, so THANKS to those getting out footage of brutal police attempts to disrupt voting.... who are actually breaking the "law" to do so.

👍

It is unacceptable in a democratic society to prevent people from expressing themselves democratically by using abusive regulations or by force. Period.

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3 minutes ago, Martin B. said:

poor stupid uneducated people who don't know any better

this is the essence of fascism

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13 minutes ago, karbatal said:

Anyway,  it seems people living thousands of kilometers away know everything based on some special TV they watched this evening :rotfl:

 

Stop being so condescending. According to UK mainstream media, there was not even a referendum vote today. It's like the fifth news item on the BBC. No one cares. Like most things, one must look to social media and the (trustworthy) political blogs to get the real news.

Your UKIP analogy is useless. Although there are a few people in here sounding just like them.

If the Scottish GOVERNMENT announced a referendum tomorrow on Scottish independence (keeping in mind there are millions AGAINST as well as for it) without the say so of the Westminster parliament, would I support it? Absolutely I would. And if a bunch of riot police dared to come up from England and started beating up people queuing to vote and stealing ballot boxes etc and turned my country into a fascist state would YOU speak out against it?

 

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4 minutes ago, sotos8 said:

this is the essence of fascism

Out of curiosity, where did you take this quotation from me? I did not comment on this topic until my comment a few minutes ago.🤔

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1 minute ago, Martin B. said:

Out of curiosity, where did you take this quotation from me? I did not comment on this topic until my comment a few minutes ago.🤔

you replied to Kim's comment .I actually quoted Kim not you ,sorry

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Just now, sotos8 said:

you replied to Kim's comment .I actually quoted Kim not you ,sorry

👍

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Just now, Kim said:

Are you having a laugh? What are they showing on Spanish TV right now? Cartoons? A cookery programme? Or this...

And I'm from Scotland. And live in a city that has THIS statue as a commemoration of the Scots who fought against fascism in Spain 

DLEZ_PSWkAAKoSE.jpg

And where THESE kind of scenes of  violence against people going about their business would be unimaginable. 

 

the first time I went to Edinburgh it was in the middle of the marches against  Bush and all these people, in 2005 I think...and people were really angry because of the police, and I was surprised about how polite they looked to me. Again, I come from a place were police used to kill people.I didn´t want to say the spanish police were nuns,  but they had been way softer than they used to.and when I say that police used to kill people here I´m not talking only about the 80s.During the 90s this was a really scary place with the police (the typical case of a policeman on drugs hitting street lights instead of human beings), a few people lost their eyes because they used to shot balls to the heads...there was a dead man 3-4 years ago, in a football march!!!

that´s why these images look less bad that I thought they would. And, I still don´t understand why did they have three time more police waiting in the port, while other polices were left alone surrounded by people...

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Just now, Martin B. said:

👍

It is unacceptable in a democratic society to prevent people from expressing themselves democratically by using abusive regulations or by force. Period.

welcome to spain

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I´ve just heard the government.I fear

article 8 of the spanish constitution: if any part of the country wants to separate, the army will stop that.And this time they won´t be soft.Crap

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39 minutes ago, promise to try said:

the first time I went to Edinburgh it was in the middle of the marches against  Bush and all these people, in 2005 I think...and people were really angry because of the police, and I was surprised about how polite they looked to me. Again, I come from a place were police used to kill people.I didn´t want to say the spanish police were nuns,  but they had been way softer than they used to.and when I say that police used to kill people here I´m not talking only about the 80s.During the 90s this was a really scary place with the police (the typical case of a policeman on drugs hitting street lights instead of human beings), a few people lost their eyes because they used to shot balls to the heads...there was a dead man 3-4 years ago, in a football march!!!

that´s why these images look less bad that I thought they would. And, I still don´t understand why did they have three time more police waiting in the port, while other polices were left alone surrounded by people...

That sounds like the G8 protest march that was held before the G8 summit in Scotland that year (and when Madonna played Live 8) That scale of protest  and police presence isn't typical of over here though. I get that putting Spain's history into context when it comes to the police makes this not look as bad to you, but from an outsider's perspective.... it's bad. 

19 minutes ago, promise to try said:

I´ve just heard the government.I fear

article 8 of the spanish constitution: if any part of the country wants to separate, the army will stop that.And this time they won´t be soft.Crap

Time for Catalonia to declare UDI then...and then beloved EU and U.N will be forced to actually get involved instead of doing fuck all as usual.

 

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Even if people want to cling to constitutionality for dear life and wax poetic about the illegality of it all, surely declaring the whole thing illegitimate post-facto would be better (in virtually every sense) than sending riot police to steal ballot boxes and beat the shit out of old ladies in the streets.

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40 minutes ago, LSD said:

Even if people want to cling to constitutionality for dear life and wax poetic about the illegality of it all, surely declaring the whole thing illegitimate post-facto would be better (in virtually every sense) than sending riot police to steal ballot boxes and beat the shit out of old ladies in the streets.

I agree. Let them express themselves, then wait for the result. You'll have enough time to react and negotiate afterwards. 

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I am so ashamed of my country that I don't wanna be part of it anymore. I seriously want to leave. The percentage of ignorants and retareded scum in Spain is so high... 

 

Our president must go find Joanne. NOW. 

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Just now, LSD said:

Even if people want to cling to constitutionality for dear life and wax poetic about the illegality of it all, surely declaring the whole thing illegitimate post-facto would be better (in virtually every sense) than sending riot police to steal ballot boxes and beat the shit out of old ladies in the streets.

yes, but instead the sent a ship full of police with a looney toons painting on its wall

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The independists won the image war. This was handled so badly by the spanish government that people are now pro separatists because we don't understand a damn thing about spanish politics but we see images of the police beating elderly women covered in blood. 

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6 hours ago, runa said:

 

No matter if you're for or against that referendum, you must let people decide for their destiny. 

 

 

That's great. But why the international community decided that this wasn't applicable to Crimeans in 2014 when they wanted to split from Ukraine?

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8 hours ago, Django said:

I am so ashamed of my country that I don't wanna be part of it anymore. I seriously want to leave. The percentage of ignorants and retareded scum in Spain is so high... 

 

Our president must go find Joanne. NOW. 

I feel the same.  

 

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6 hours ago, Nessie said:

That's great. But why the international community decided that this wasn't applicable to Crimeans in 2014 when they wanted to split from Ukraine?

Another can of worms :lmao:

That's what I said before: every independence situation is different and couldn't be judged easily.  

 

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6 hours ago, Roland Barthes said:

The independists won the image war. This was handled so badly by the spanish government that people are now pro separatists because we don't understand a damn thing about spanish politics but we see images of the police beating elderly women covered in blood. 

The Madrid government is the worst.  It's like a factory of independentists. My own mother told me "they should have independence and we should go with them and create again the Aragon Kingdom" !!!!! 

With this horrible situation I wouldn't wonder if we go in that direction.  

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Just now, karbatal said:

The Madrid government is the worst.  It's like a factory of independentists. My own mother told me "they should have independence and we should go with them and create again the Aragon Kingdom" !!!!! 

With this horrible situation I wouldn't wonder if we go in that direction.  

yes, even people in other parts of spain prefer to go with catalonia than to stay with some kind of spanish people!

anyways, as somebody has said, pro referemdum people won the image war yesterday. But this next week will be very long.yesterday was, in my opnion, an ordago, I don´t know if that expression exists in english. Yesterday they were showing who had the biggest dick! now that both have shown how big their dick is, they have to manage what to do with it!

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2 hours ago, promise to try said:

yes, even people in other parts of spain prefer to go with catalonia than to stay with some kind of spanish people!

anyways, as somebody has said, pro referemdum people won the image war yesterday. But this next week will be very long.yesterday was, in my opnion, an ordago, I don´t know if that expression exists in english. Yesterday they were showing who had the biggest dick! now that both have shown how big their dick is, they have to manage what to do with it!

 

Well, things will go worse because nobody WANTS to sit down and get an arrangement. But I doubt Mariano Rajoy will want that. And the Catalanish government doesn't want that either. 

It is clear that something should be done and there is the Government saying stupid things all the time. 

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So I have read that it directly contradicts the Constitution. Also: can it really be considered democratic? There were no foreign watchers, no control over the bulletins of other parties opposing the cessation etc. If the Spanish government follows art. 155 of the Constitution, no cessation would follow...

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14 minutes ago, elijah said:

So I have read that it directly contradicts the Constitution. Also: can it really be considered democratic? There were no foreign watchers, no control over the bulletins of other parties opposing the cessation etc. If the Spanish government follows art. 155 of the Constitution, no cessation would follow...

At this point, the Spanish government should do what it should have been done YEARS AND YEARS AGO. Allow a referendum. But a real one. With real information and explaining perfectly

1. Will Catalonia be part of the EU?

2. Will Catalonia have the euro? 

3. Will Catalonia take responsibility of the part of the national debt corresponding to the population and territory? 

4. Will Catalonia be able to pay the retirement pension money to millions of Spaniards who have worked there but nowadays live in their origin place? 

If they are going to do another referendum saying that "we will be richer because we will have 15.000 million euro more every year" and don't answer those questions above or have no idea about it, I don't think it is fair for the more than 4 million non-independent people living in Catalonia, having to face the consequences. 

But, if the EU and Spain, along with the CAtalonian government, are able to stablish some route paper, that would be the best decision.

But of course IT WON'T HAPPEN

Because then the media would have to speak about other things happening in Spain. For example, the fact that 40.000 million euro given to the banks are not going to be given back. Or the fact that the unemployment not only is a big problem, the quality of employment in Spain is nowadays gone to the pits. And what about all the illegal financiation of the party in the Government? And the fact that the money for the retirement pension is nowadays GONE and there's no money for the future? Not to mention all the money that Catalanish independent politicians have in Switzerland after it was robbed from the Catalanish people...

Ummm, what will the Government in Madrid and Barcelona choose?????? 

Resultado de imagen de choices gif

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