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Spain...destroying themselves from the inside

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6 minutes ago, elijah said:

Is it democracy when its unconstitutional? And also, Karba is right. Its good to be funded with priority for hundred of years and then just leave with the funds of all of Spain...

ThIs fallacy that the right to self-determination of a people can be alienated by pre-existing constitutional arrangements is rejected by international law. It is pathetic to see the Establishment (and its mouthpieces like yourself) throughout Europe hiding behind the fig leaf of the Spanish constitutional court to state that Catalonia cannot secede, and therefore the gross repression of democracy by the Spanish government is legitimate. The argument that the post-Franco settlement perpetually alienates the Catalan right to self-determination is risible. It's also embarrassing to see the completely separate issue of Brexit (a Brexit that was overwhelmingly voted AGAINST by the City of London btw,) being brought into the equation. Those voters a least were ALLOWED TO VOTE.

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3 minutes ago, Kim said:

ThIs fallacy that the right to self-determination of a people can be alienated by pre-existing constitutional arrangements is rejected by international law. It is pathetic to see the Establishment (and its mouthpieces like yourself) throughout Europe hiding behind the fig leaf of the Spanish constitutional court to state that Catalonia cannot secede, and therefore the gross repression of democracy by the Spanish government is legitimate. The argument that the post-Franco settlement perpetually alienates the Catalan right to self-determination is risible. It's also embarrassing to see the completely separate issue of Brexit (a Brexit that was overwhelmingly voted AGAINST by the City of London btw,) being brought into the equation. Those voters a least were ALLOWED TO VOTE.

Sorry but Spanish history goes further than Franco. In Catalonia case it is intertwined with my history because Catalonia was part of the Aragon Kingdom,  where Zaragoza  (my city)  was the capital.  Rhe same as the Navarra Kingdom,  which nowadays is more or less Basque Country,  Aragon was absorbed by Castilla. That was a problem because most of citizens in those kingdoms never really felt good with the Castilian leaders and Kings.  

That said,  the real nationalism in Basque Country and Catalonia started in the 19th century,  being part of the romantic movement. Many very old traditions were recovered or directly invented to create a national personality.  Which is not bad because it meant a richer culture.  

The XXTH century was very difficult in Spain and we even got rid of the Kings. During the Republic,  things got incredibly wrong.  That lead to Catalonia to declare the independence unilaterally.  No wonder because nobody wanted to be there. 

During Franco not only those parts of Spain suffered oppression. Many other parts like Aragon,  Galicia,  Valencia etc,  were oppressed and traditions considered an insult to the Spanish Race. Franco was like Hitler and hated anything different.  

That said... 

Since the democracy things changed big time.  Those regions willing to be more independent were invited to have their own Parliament,  competences on Education so children could study in their own language.. Even their own television,  so they could inform from their own issues.  

Until 2010-2012, only a 12% of the people in Catalonia wanted independence.  

Now look at the situation once the corruption swallowed political parties.  

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2 minutes ago, Kim said:

ThIs fallacy that the right to self-determination of a people can be alienated by pre-existing constitutional arrangements is rejected by international law. It is pathetic to see the Establishment (and its mouthpieces like yourself) throughout Europe hiding behind the fig leaf of the Spanish constitutional court to state that Catalonia cannot secede, and therefore the gross repression of democracy by the Spanish government is legitimate. The argument that the post-Franco settlement perpetually alienates the Catalan right to self-determination is risible. It's also embarrassing to see the completely separate issue of Brexit (a Brexit that was overwhelmingly voted AGAINST by the City of London btw,) being brought into the equation. Those voters a least were ALLOWED TO VOTE.

What a dramatic tantrum and a great way to show the liberalism gone wrong. As it is stated by Buda some thousand years ago, always aim at the golden middle. So any extremism in any direction is unhealthy, as he cleverly observed so many years ago. As a whole, I believe in the right to self-determination, but not at any price. I am against people deciding smith so vital when they are ill informed, manipulated and basically tricked to vote a certain way. As an outsider who didn't follow the referendum in Catalonia from within, I don't see any logical reason for wanting to secede from Spain, where Catalonia has been given all the rights/money and into which it has been incorporated for centuries... I have a suspicion who is behind this and funding this in a way to make Spain AND Europe weaker, so that its easy to divide. It has direct connection to Britain and its exit from EU, where ill informed, manipulated and basically tricked to vote a certain way people had the privilege to vote and its another mess, which was useless and with which the whole of EU has to waste time to deal with when there are more important issues at stake... As a whole, as I said, it serves an agenda and the liberals would be the first victims if this agenda wins. 

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10 minutes ago, karbatal said:

Until 2010-2012, only a 12% of the people in Catalonia wanted independence.  

Interesting, very interesting...

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What is happening in Spain right now is such a shame. Is it what they call democracy?

No matter if you're for or against that referendum, you must let people decide for their destiny. 

Never thought I'd say that, but for once I totally agree with @Kim

 

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1 minute ago, runa said:

Never thought I'd say that, but for once I totally agree with @Kim

 

And as usual you're unable to just say "I totally agree with Kim" without the usual passive-aggressive bullshit.

As for the rest, I've no interest in debating with pro-fascist, anti-democratic sympathisers.

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2 minutes ago, Kim said:

As for the rest, I've no interest in debating with pro-fascist, anti-democratic sympathisers.

Well I never knew I was fascist, but I guess I can learn smith new every day. I also don't want to debate with short sighted ppl. By the way you don't sound very democratic. Could the fascist shout "catch the fascist"?

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13 minutes ago, Kim said:

 

And as usual you're unable to just say "I totally agree with Kim" without the usual passive-aggressive bullshit.

As for the rest, I've no interest in debating with pro-fascist, anti-democratic sympathisers.

I hope that doesn't go for me. I tried to give as much information as possible about a very complicated issue because it has nothing to do with other situations like Scotland or Quebecq.  

I don't agree with this referendum because it's as the Brexit one: uncalled for and lacks information.  And I don't agree with the violence expressed by the policy forces. 

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3 minutes ago, karbatal said:

I don't agree with this referendum because it's as the Brexit one: uncalled for and lacks information.  And I don't agree with the violence expressed by the policy forces. 

I agree. I am also against the violence.

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18 minutes ago, elijah said:

Well I never knew I was fascist, but I guess I can learn smith new every day. I also don't want to debate with short sighted ppl. By the way you don't sound very democratic. Could the fascist shout "catch the fascist"?

Well surely some people here don't know how generous Bulgaria was with Macedonia some years ago when they wanted the independence and nobody recognised the country and you helped them instead of trying to get the territory. 

I've always admired your country for that and thank you for trying to comprehend the fact that my country is different. 

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so many things to say about this today! first of all, something very weird to mee, I´m not used to say good things about police. A lot of people, specially on twitter , are showing images of "brutality".And, even tough there is some blood, they have been doing a quite good job. Maybe I am used to another type of situations in the Bacque country, we have had way worse situations, with police even killking people. WWhat the spanish police is doing today, is quite soft. Actually, in some moments it seems that they are defending from the people, more than other thing. The ones making a mistake are again the spanish politicians, well, the government: you can´t send 500 policeman to do all the dirty job in catalunya.either you send all the ones that you have in the Ship at barcelona´s port, or you don´t send anybody.But a bunch of police against a hnuge part of the catalunians...no.

 

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about the catalonians being selfish etc... well, they have always said that about them, but I don´t believe or like this type of generalisations.

8 years ago,k the parliament in catalonia voted and approved a new estatute, a new regional constitution.After that, the spanish parliament voted, and they accepted it.But PP´s people weren´t happy about it, and they send it to the Tribunal <constitutional, the Cosntotucional Court, where they have the mayority, with their people on it. And they decided that the law, voted by the catalonians, and voted by the parliament in madrid, was ilegal. And that´s when the independence thing started to rise in catalonia.

so you have the historic pro independence 10 %+ a lot of people angry because the spanish government wasn´t respecting their decision+ economic crisis+ spanish government doing some dirty things (am I the only one remembering the spanish minister saying that they fucked catalonian´s  public medical system?????)

 

remember that 8 years ago they were asking for things that were already legal in one region or other in spain

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2 minutes ago, promise to try said:

about the catalonians being selfish etc... well, they have always said that about them, but I don´t believe or like this type of generalisations.

8 years ago,k the parliament in catalonia voted and approved a new estatute, a new regional constitution.After that, the spanish parliament voted, and they accepted it.But PP´s people weren´t happy about it, and they send it to the Tribunal <constitutional, the Cosntotucional Court, where they have the mayority, with their people on it. And they decided that the law, voted by the catalonians, and voted by the parliament in madrid, was ilegal. And that´s when the independence thing started to rise in catalonia.

so you have the historic pro independence 10 %+ a lot of people angry because the spanish government wasn´t respecting their decision+ economic crisis+ spanish government doing some dirty things (am I the only one remembering the spanish minister saying that they fucked catalonian´s  public medical system?????)

 

remember that 8 years ago they were asking for things that were already legal in one region or other in spain

First of all,  agree with the Police thing.  Especially because if there's a brutal police in Spain that's the Catalanish one.  Of course every single aggression is uncalled for and I hope those agents are punished (although I doubt it).  

About the Estatut in Catalonia that was taken to the Jury,  it had things that were against the Spanish Constitution.  I wouldn't have denounced it tbqh but it was not all amended.  Just those parts against the Constitution.

If that became such a big problem afterwards was because back then ERC was governing and had to do something to give to their voters.  That's my opinion.  

By the way,  the Government with ERC and PSC and that other party I don't remember,  the Tripartito,  left Catalonia on the veirge of bankruptcy.  That had a lot to do with the poisoning of the media there,  because real soon ERC started the independence campaign. 

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And yes.  The Government from Madrid is a CUNT too and has done the worse things during these years too.  I agree. 

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and about the spanish government helping catalonia or the basque country, I will talk about my situation. since the 19th century, the spanish government has been helping the interests of some basque families, especially from biscay. But they are a group of families, the ones that have created the first banques in spain back then, the first steel industries...the big money always went to 10 families, the same ones (well, all but one, the Sota family, who was in favour of the legal democracy of the republic, and lost everything), that were also Franco friendly in the middle part of the 20th century.So spanish governments since the 19th have helped an eliote, not all the basques.

and yes, they have helped these families because there were the raw materials that were necessary for the industry back then, not only because they were friends or family. and yes, this has brought a lot of jobs to the basque country, jobs were they workers were usually from outside the basque country, and that have obtain the possibility here to have a more or less decent job.But the situation was, elite with huge amounts of money VS workers (any worker).

About Aragon´s situation: I really don´t know it, I have been there a few times, and what always surprises me, aside of its beauty, is that there are not a lot of inhabitants there. Well, and the super fast train!! we don´t have that yet, eve though they have it in some regions of spain since 1992.But yes, some places have been fucked by the new economic situations, I guess in aragon´s place is especially because there is not a maritime port, and most of the trade is done by sea. But of course karbatal, in that particular topic you know way more than me.

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Just now, karbatal said:

First of all,  agree with the Police thing.  Especially because if there's a brutal police in Spain that's the Catalanish one.  Of course every single aggression is uncalled for and I hope those agents are punished (although I doubt it).  

Yes!!! noe they treat them as some kind of granma helpers, but jesus!!! they are scary!

 

"About the Estatut in Catalonia that was taken to the Jury,  it had things that were against the Spanish Constitution.  I wouldn't have denounced it tbqh but it was not all amended.  Just those parts against the Constitution."

you see that it sounds weird to have the politicians voting in favour of the regional constitution both in madrid and catalonia, but the right winged jury going against it!

 

By the way,  the Government with ERC and PSC and that other party I don't remember,  the Tripartito,  left Catalonia on the veirge of bankruptcy.  That had a lot to do with the poisoning of the media there,  because real soon ERC started the independence campaign. 

 

There has been a lot of corruption in catalonia, that´s what they say.especially with CIU, a political party that has been supporting spanish governments since the 80s.Sometimes it seems that the spanish govenments knew it, but tolerate it because of their votes

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4 minutes ago, promise to try said:

and about the spanish government helping catalonia or the basque country, I will talk about my situation. since the 19th century, the spanish government has been helping the interests of some basque families, especially from biscay. But they are a group of families, the ones that have created the first banques in spain back then, the first steel industries...the big money always went to 10 families, the same ones (well, all but one, the Sota family, who was in favour of the legal democracy of the republic, and lost everything), that were also Franco friendly in the middle part of the 20th century.So spanish governments since the 19th have helped an eliote, not all the basques.

and yes, they have helped these families because there were the raw materials that were necessary for the industry back then, not only because they were friends or family. and yes, this has brought a lot of jobs to the basque country, jobs were they workers were usually from outside the basque country, and that have obtain the possibility here to have a more or less decent job.But the situation was, elite with huge amounts of money VS workers (any worker).

About Aragon´s situation: I really don´t know it, I have been there a few times, and what always surprises me, aside of its beauty, is that there are not a lot of inhabitants there. Well, and the super fast train!! we don´t have that yet, eve though they have it in some regions of spain since 1992.But yes, some places have been fucked by the new economic situations, I guess in aragon´s place is especially because there is not a maritime port, and most of the trade is done by sea. But of course karbatal, in that particular topic you know way more than me.

The train is not in the Basque country because of different things.  Among them,  because big part of the population and even ETA was against it.

And the reason why we have so little inhabitants here is because most emigrated to Catalonia.  

And yes,  it's all about the elites in Spain. It SUCKS. 

300px-AHTaren_kontra_Bilbo.jpg

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Just now, karbatal said:

And yes.  The Government from Madrid is a CUNT too and has done the worse things during these years too.  I agree. 

PP is handling the situation very bad. the only good thing is that people still separate the idea of this government with the idea of spain, even tough some people in the PP think they are the only valid spanish supporters

 

and meanwhile, the socialist party is fucked

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Just now, karbatal said:

The train is not in the Basque country because of different things.  Among them,  because big part of the population and even ETA was against it.

And the reason why we have so little inhabitants here is because most emigrated to Catalonia.  

And yes,  it's all about the elites in Spain. It SUCKS. 

300px-AHTaren_kontra_Bilbo.jpg

and here it comes the second thing that catalonia was asking for in the last 8 years...the basque system of taxation!!! thanks to that, we pay to the spanish government the money they spend on us for the army, navy, policve, Television...and we also pay money to help other regions, but, we keep the rest of our taxes to use them in whatever we want. It´s  very risky, because we don´t have that inter regional help support if the situation goes south.And we have prefered to use our taxes in other things, not in a train that we really don´t need. Well, we need it but it wasn´t our priority, hospitals etc were.

and,catalonia wanted this taxation system, and they are not allowed to have it.Some people say that it´s a privilege bizkaia-gizpuakoa-araba-navarre have. well. it´s a privilege if only we have it.but if other region wants it, I don´t know why they can´t have it. well, some regions apparently coudn´t have it because of their economical situation(they always mention Galicia), but if you can pay everything, including the government in spain and the solidarity between the regions, why not?

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10 minutes ago, karbatal said:

I hope that doesn't go for me. I tried to give as much information as possible about a very complicated issue because it has nothing to do with other situations like Scotland or Quebecq.  

I don't agree with this referendum because it's as the Brexit one: uncalled for and lacks information.  And I don't agree with the violence expressed by the policy forces. 

Look, I don't know enough about Spanish and Catalan politics to have an opinion about whether independence is a good idea or not. But I know that democracy is a good idea, and the draconian attempts of the Spanish government to suppress the referendum (ludicrously under-reported in the UK media, particularly broadcast media) are a terrifying throwback to its fascist past. Nor am I comfortable with this "poor stupid uneducated people who don't know any better" rhetoric being put forward for every democratic process across the world like they are all one and the same.

It's no surprise that the mainstream media are united in their silence along with the  Establishment’s NGO’s on the shameful  repression of democracy in Catalonia. The Establishment all round the world seeks to enforce its will and protect it's vast wealth for a tiny minority through manipulating the institutions of society. The aim, ALWAYS, is to maintain that status quo. The last thing they like to see is rational popular discontent or unrest within the European core of that neo liberal agenda. So when you see that Establishment, plus the entire mainstream media united against the ordinary people as we see today in Catalonia, it is a no-brainer which side I (as an outsider) should be on. I also understand there's a shocking law making it illegal to film Spanish police, so THANKS to those getting out footage of brutal police attempts to disrupt voting.... who are actually breaking the "law" to do so.

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Just now, promise to try said:

And yes,  it's all about the elites in Spain. It SUCKS.

at least in the basque country, the PP voters, the ones that are really their people, are from that elite. a lot of people voted them because ETA was killing them, but now that ETA is not here anymore, people outside the elite have stopped voting them.this is not a 100% accurate, but it works most of the time. The pp voters live in the same neighbourhoods (las arenas, neguri, ensanche...), are the same families that have known each other from decades, and they even have their own places to socialice.again, is not %100 accurate, but it works 75 % of the time

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Just now, Kim said:

 

It's no surprise that the mainstream media are united in their silence along with the  Establishment’s NGO’s on the shameful  repression of democracy in Catalonia. The Establishment all round the world seeks to enforce its will and protect it's vast wealth for a tiny minority through manipulating the institutions of society. The aim, ALWAYS, is to maintain that status quo. The last thing they like to see is rational popular discontent or unrest within the European core of that neo liberal agenda. So when you see that Establishment, plus the entire mainstream media united against the ordinary people as we see today in Catalonia, it is a no-brainer which side I (as an outsider) should be on. I also understand there's a shocking law making it illegal to film Spanish police, so THANKS to those getting out footage of brutal police attempts to disrupt voting.... who are actually breaking the "law" to do so.

yes to the first underlined part.if there is a change, it has to be to make economy work better, neo liberalism work better, never to have more democracy or human rights.And that works in any part of the world.

about being illegal filming spanish police...I didn´t know it, but I guess it´s one of the laws created against ETA, that has been used for the regular peaceful people too. Nothing new either.

 

about the police being brutal...I don´t know where are you from, but I want to live there!!!! the police has been quite smooth,not perfect, that´s true, but quite smooth, I was expecting worse.

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30 minutes ago, promise to try said:

 

about the police being brutal...I don´t know where are you from, but I want to live there!!!! the police has been quite smooth,not perfect, that´s true, but quite smooth, I was expecting worse.

Are you having a laugh? What are they showing on Spanish TV right now? Cartoons? A cookery programme? Or this...

And I'm from Scotland. And live in a city that has THIS statue as a commemoration of the Scots who fought against fascism in Spain 

DLEZ_PSWkAAKoSE.jpg

And where THESE kind of scenes of  violence against people going about their business would be unimaginable. 

 

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they're reporting at least 700 wounded of the police attacks .sorry but that's not democracy it's junta

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I think people are confusing many things and speaking without knowing a single iota :lmao:

As if we were accepting violence or in favour of fascism... 

If the Ukip ALONE decided unilaterally a referendum to leave the EU would you support it? Because this is what is happening here.  A referendum based in lies and with a blatant lack on information about the consequences is simply to be avoided. Because there are MILLIONS of people in Catalonia who is against the independence.  

Anyway,  it seems people living thousands of kilometers away know everything based on some special TV they watched this evening :rotfl:

We've been being informed here for FIVE YEARS. 

 

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