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Spain...destroying themselves from the inside

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10 hours ago, sotos8 said:

I wonder what was EU's official position at spain's police brutality the day of referendum?

The brutality was disgusting for the EU and the majority of Spaniards.  Even the Government has said that it was uncalled for. 

The think is though that that brutality doesn't automatically validate the Catalomian point of view.  

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2 hours ago, karbatal said:

The brutality was disgusting for the EU and the majority of Spaniards.  Even the Government has said that it was uncalled for

The think is though that that brutality doesn't automatically validate the Catalomian point of view.  

well, one person in the government.The president and others have been quiet about it, expressing their love to the police.

 

EU has said that they can´t mediate if one doesn´t ask for that help .I guess they are talking about the spanish government

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So is Spain the fucked up oppressor splitting up or not? 

 

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49 minutes ago, ULIZOS said:

So is Spain the fucked up oppressor splitting up or not? 

 

not, hopefully

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2 hours ago, ULIZOS said:

All this drama for nothing

Indeed 

You can't imagine the myriads of memes in Spain these days :lol:

As I said just the very same day of the referendum, this has always been a perfect smoke curtain for the Spanish government.  And for part of the Catalonia government too. 

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5 hours ago, promise to try said:

well, one person in the government.The president and others have been quiet about it, expressing their love to the police.

 

EU has said that they can´t mediate if one doesn´t ask for that help .I guess they are talking about the spanish government

To quote the CUP: "But to negotiate what,  and with whom?" 

Because tbqh I would like to know what they would negotiate. They are the most self governed region IN THE WORLD.  So if it's all about the money,  then they can tell the citizens "sorry,  guys,  your nationalism worths exactly 15billion a year.  If Madrid gives us that,  you can go fuck yourselves".  

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I don´t know about catalonia, but I know what I would negociate if I was in catalonia´s position. First of all, who rules the basque counrty, the spanish government or the basque one? both at the same level? today´s situation , that they let us do thing "if we behave", is not acceptable for me. the other thing that I would negociate is something to make clear that the basque country is not only the three provinces that nowadays are BC under the spanish constitution. I would use something from europe, a euro region or something like that, to have all the provinces together, even in a symbolic way.

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10 hours ago, promise to try said:

I don´t know about catalonia, but I know what I would negociate if I was in catalonia´s position. First of all, who rules the basque counrty, the spanish government or the basque one? both at the same level? today´s situation , that they let us do thing "if we behave", is not acceptable for me. the other thing that I would negociate is something to make clear that the basque country is not only the three provinces that nowadays are BC under the spanish constitution. I would use something from europe, a euro region or something like that, to have all the provinces together, even in a symbolic way.

But Iholdi,  nobody says "if you behave"  or threatens.  Spain is never menacing like that. Until know the majority of Spaniards had zero idea that articles like 155 existed,  it's never been used in 40 years and only was commented in a situation like this.  

Have you or anybody you know ever in these past 40 years felt constricted as a Basque citizen????  Your language,  your culture,  your history,  your parliament...  Has been respected every second. 

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8 minutes ago, karbatal said:

But Iholdi,  nobody says "if you behave"  or threatens.  Spain is never menacing like that. Until know the majority of Spaniards had zero idea that articles like 155 existed,  it's never been used in 40 years and only was commented in a situation like this.  

 

actually yes, popular party´s people, and not only today´s ones, but at least since the 90s it´s been like that.And the constitution has been designed for that.There are at least two articles about that, and I guess they may be at least two more. The most importants, anyways, are the 8th article (if a part of the country separates or tries to separate from the rest of the country, the army will solve the problem).I think article 2 also talks about the unity of the country.and of course, now the famous 155, which I´ve heard is not the first time they try to use it (canary islands when felipe gonzalez was in charge, although I don´t remember anything from that era), or they threaten an autonomous comunity with that. And, believe me, the theatrs  to forbid us of doing things have been constant since I listen to the news.sometimes bigger threats, other times smaller, but constant.

and the biggest ones are the ones that are done without menacing: remember that the regional constitution that we have hasn´t been complited yet, 40 years later!!!! there are 37 laws that the spanish government doesn´t let us implement, and we have had all types of governments in spain.we even had one pp-psoe government in the basque country for a few years, which nearly destroyed the basque psoe.they used to fight to win the elections, and now they are the 4th(?) party. actually, the only spanish party that has a lot of votes is podemos right now.of course, if any spanish government tries to finish with this problem and give us the right to use that law, the other big political party starts saying that "they are selling spain", and a movement against everything starts again. Of course, never as big as the one that is happening now in catalonia. Maybe with the Ibarretxe-pnv in the late 90s, when all the TVs were saying, all the politicians on the tvs were saying that in the basque country everything was ETA: Eta, the schools, the TV, some brands,some newspapers that were closed and 15 years later everybody was taken from jail as non guilty...

it seems that the only good way to be basque in spain is if you behave, if you behave as a healthy regionalist that loves spain.Like the president from cantabria.

and don´t forget either the LOAPA, in the 80s, after the  failed coup détat: after the estatutes-regional constitutions were voted, the spanish government decided that it was too much, and suddenly they cutted what it was voted by the people (not only in the basque country)

 

but of course most of the people in spain don´t know about the 155.and now they do, and a lot of them are happy with it. Actually, I think the government is been wise so far, in its use. and,anyways,regular people don´t know about 155 or 8, because so far when the governments have wanted to change something in the regional laws, they have done it using regular laws.Remember Wert´s law in education? yes, they wanted to make a better education, that´s what they said, but also, to make spain more spanish ("re españolizar", I don´t know how to do it), and they were taking for them the regional laws related to the education!

 

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what I want to say is that this is the first time (canary islands?) that they have used the 155, but because they have been taking away the rights in the regional laws on a regular basis since the beginning! since 1981-82!!  using just regular laws.asnd the threats, at least ion the basque country, have been regular too.

but as you can see this is not a problem with spain, is a problem with how was the state designed, and with a group of people that think that a multinational/cultural or whatever you want to call it country that spain can be, must be always under a central power, under what they think you should be: and that works also for aragon or other regions that never appear on the news as aragon, extremadura or murcia.

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57 minutes ago, karbatal said:

Have you or anybody you know ever in these past 40 years felt constricted as a Basque citizen????  Your language,  your culture,  your history,  your parliament...  Has been respected every second. 

Do you remember when our president , the lehendakari, was in a court? that happened when he tried to change the system, using the laws, of course.or when the presindent of the basque parliament was accused of helping ETA´s people and couldn´t continue working there ? I´m talking about Atutxa!! the person that ETA´s people hated the most! again he wasn´t doing at that moment what PP wanted, and he went from being a hero in spain ro being a pro terrorist person. They even started writing his surname with the spanish ortography, and when he was "behaving good" they used to write it with the basque oprtography! yes, childish but real!

I remember talking with a person very close to Arzalluz (xabier arzalluz was the presiendt of the most voted political party in the basque comunity), and he used to say that, he was going to finish in jail if he continued not behaving as a good spanish citizen . he used to talk about the spanish system as "low intesity-key democracy" and refer to himself as a subdit of the spanish crown.

and about the language, I´m not going to talk about the basque country in france or navarre, only about the autonomous comunity, the place were the situation is best.we have two official languages in here, one that everybody knows, spanish, well, castilian we call it.And the other, the basque language, euskara.We have a lot of public money to help it, basically in the education. But 40 years on, still is a battle that basque is losing. In my ideal country everybody would know both languages, well, also french, so everybody could talk in the language that he/she chooses. but even today, in 2017, that´s impossible.But that´s not a battle against spain, is a battle between basques, the lack of respect that a part of the land has against the other, and the language is used a lot of times as a rock to trough against the other.

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Well the tension during the 80s and 90s was so strong due to ETA killing people and the dirty games from Felipe González.... And even then being Basque was not threatened in your region.  In fact,  feeling Spanish was dangerous there. 

I'm sorry, I can perfectly understand that someone doesn't feel Spanish.  I can understand that someone wants his country being independent. If anyone feels that the system doesn't work because of that,  I understand. 

 But I can not understand a person from Basque Country or Catalonia feeling that his culture or language or spirit is crushed by Spain.  Because since the early 90s both Basque Country and Catalonia have been pivotal to form a government in Madrid.  And have got good benefits from that support.  So if someone thinks that the system doesn't work even then,  then I don't understand. 

 

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Regarding laws not being accepted,  I don't know which are those laws.  Normally all laws are accepted unless it is the Spanish Government who has that prerogative.  It happens the same with the EU.  

 

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2 hours ago, karbatal said:

 But I can not understand a person from Basque Country or Catalonia feeling that his culture or language or spirit is crushed by Spain.  Because since the early 90s both Basque Country and Catalonia have been pivotal to form a government in Madrid.  And have got good benefits from that support.  So if someone thinks that the system doesn't work even then,  then I don't understand. 

 

I guess it´s more about some spanish politicians, that everytime they do a new law, have spain and their love for spain in their mouth, I guess.and that spain is still seen as something related to franco. I don´t know, it´s a teory, but remember than back in the civil war and after, the basque country was very catholic, and the problem with franco´s people wasn´t related to the religion, but to a way of being spanish.Una grande y libre type of spain, you know.And we haven´t recover hourselves from that yet.So it´s not strange to think that spain and fascists are more or less the same.And the fact that our own spanish people, the elites,are quite fascists, doesn´t help at all!:lol:

But I think little by little is changing, thanks to political parties like podemos, for example.Or even people related to humor: facu diaz and maldonado, david broncano...this type of left winged people making jokes about everything, and trying to understand us while laughing at us, I think is really helping.Again, people need time, because is easier to erase something from the brain than from the heart.

and yes, both CIU from catalonia and PNV from the basque country have been really important in the spanish system, especially during the 80-90s, but always, I mean, PNV is still keeping PP in the government with their votes.But in here they sell it as a "look what we have to do for the basque country´s rights! we have to give them our votes to them! to THEM!!".and still works for a lot of their people.They don´t go deeper at why do their people hate pp´s people or why do their people boo the spanish anthem when they play a final in the spanish´kings cup.

 

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2 hours ago, karbatal said:

 

Im sorry, I can perfectly understand that someone doesn't feel Spanish.  I can understand that someone wants his country being independent. If anyone feels that the system doesn't work because of that,  I understand.

 

I understand other feelings too, I mean, being basque and feeling spanish or french ,or any other posibility.That´s why I think a referendum, a real one, could be important, to make everybody feel that the laws that we are going to do after that, are really ours, and not something that somebody lets you do. And to solve the territorial problem, I mean, my basque country doesn´t end when spain finishes, a euro region could work.that´s the idea, to try to build something acceptable for everybody, not something that is going to make everybody angry, as apparently is happening in catalonia...

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12 hours ago, promise to try said:

t then again who am I! the only person in my family that loves Raphael!!!!!

:lmao:

You are clearly GAY 

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Just now, karbatal said:

:lmao:

You are clearly GAY 

:lol: he is awesome!!!!!! and as straight as any husband Joan collins has had lately!

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meanwhile, galicia is burning. well, some peopla have burnt galicia, apparebtly portugal has been helping them with the fire...I hope these lans are not used to build anything for decades

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Charlie Hebdo's editorial is so incredibly spot on. It sums up what many of us tried to explain for weeks. Love it! 

 

STUPIDITY OR DEATH !
Par Riss - 11/10/2017

The Catalan independence referendum has shaken Europe. If all the European regions with their own language, history and culture start claiming independence, the Old Continent will soon break up like pack ice under global warming. Given that there are 200 languages in Europe, why not create 200 new countries? And why not as many declarations of independence as the continent has cheeses and wines?

Independence, but from what? Independence is legitimate when you want to break free of tyranny or oppression. From what tragic destiny do the Catalans want to free themselves today? Franco banned the use of Catalan after his victory in 1939 but in 1977, not long after his death, the Generalitat de Catalunya was re-established, followed by a regional Parliament and government. So today, in the absence of Franco, they must find another tyrant to overthrow. They have chosen the Spanish state and, of course, the worst dictatorship the world has ever known: the European Union, based in Brussels.

Independence: a flamboyant word sometimes hiding less noble concerns. As with the Italian Lega Nord, it's always the richest regions that seek it. Catalonia wants independence so it no longer has to pay for Spain's poorer regions. We can almost hear the despicable Margaret Thatcher again: "I want my money back". Language, culture and tradition are nice on postcards, but dosh is so much better. Europe's poor regions rarely take to the streets demanding independence.

Beyond these mercenary considerations, it's curious to hear certain voices from the Left claiming that the independence of a region like Catalonia will strike a blow for cultural identity, which, by the way, no-one is disputing. But in that case, why should the cultural identity claimed by the Catalans be considered OK when the Christian identity championed by European xenophobes isn't? Why are the words "identity" and "culture" audible when they are uttered by the Left, but become repugnant when used by the Right or the extreme Right? The aim of Catalan independence is not to free the region of a tyranny that doesn't exist, nor to enable the economy to become prosperous because it already is, and even less to speak a language that has been authorised for a long time. The obsession with identity that is spreading across Europe like mould across fruit affects the extreme Right, but also the Left. Right-wing nationalism and left-wing nationalism have one thing in common: nationalism.

Toothless grandmothers will knit flags...

When Catalonia has broken the shackles binding it to the Spanish monarchy and the Holy European Empire, what will happen? Proud independentists will march through the streets of Barcelona to the sound of drums and fifes, taking themselves for the Durruti column, young girls will throw rose petals at the militants who have bravely defied the Spanish police state, choirs of curly-haired children will sing of new-found freedom and the end of the Euro, toothless grandmothers will knit flags in the colours of the new Republic, and great-grandfathers will dig out the caps they wore at the front in 1936. It'll be beautiful, it'll be moving, it'll be magnificent. And then when evening comes, everyone will go home and collapse in front of the telly to watch "Wheel of Fortune" and Barça in the quarter final of the league cup. Catalonia really deserved that.

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26 minutes ago, karbatal said:

Charlie Hebdo's editorial is so incredibly spot on. It sums up what many of us tried to explain for weeks. Love it! 

 

STUPIDITY OR DEATH !
Par Riss - 11/10/2017

The Catalan independence referendum has shaken Europe. If all the European regions with their own language, history and culture start claiming independence, the Old Continent will soon break up like pack ice under global warming. Given that there are 200 languages in Europe, why not create 200 new countries? And why not as many declarations of independence as the continent has cheeses and wines?

Independence, but from what? Independence is legitimate when you want to break free of tyranny or oppression. From what tragic destiny do the Catalans want to free themselves today? Franco banned the use of Catalan after his victory in 1939 but in 1977, not long after his death, the Generalitat de Catalunya was re-established, followed by a regional Parliament and government. So today, in the absence of Franco, they must find another tyrant to overthrow. They have chosen the Spanish state and, of course, the worst dictatorship the world has ever known: the European Union, based in Brussels.

Independence: a flamboyant word sometimes hiding less noble concerns. As with the Italian Lega Nord, it's always the richest regions that seek it. Catalonia wants independence so it no longer has to pay for Spain's poorer regions. We can almost hear the despicable Margaret Thatcher again: "I want my money back". Language, culture and tradition are nice on postcards, but dosh is so much better. Europe's poor regions rarely take to the streets demanding independence.

Beyond these mercenary considerations, it's curious to hear certain voices from the Left claiming that the independence of a region like Catalonia will strike a blow for cultural identity, which, by the way, no-one is disputing. But in that case, why should the cultural identity claimed by the Catalans be considered OK when the Christian identity championed by European xenophobes isn't? Why are the words "identity" and "culture" audible when they are uttered by the Left, but become repugnant when used by the Right or the extreme Right? The aim of Catalan independence is not to free the region of a tyranny that doesn't exist, nor to enable the economy to become prosperous because it already is, and even less to speak a language that has been authorised for a long time. The obsession with identity that is spreading across Europe like mould across fruit affects the extreme Right, but also the Left. Right-wing nationalism and left-wing nationalism have one thing in common: nationalism.

Toothless grandmothers will knit flags...

When Catalonia has broken the shackles binding it to the Spanish monarchy and the Holy European Empire, what will happen? Proud independentists will march through the streets of Barcelona to the sound of drums and fifes, taking themselves for the Durruti column, young girls will throw rose petals at the militants who have bravely defied the Spanish police state, choirs of curly-haired children will sing of new-found freedom and the end of the Euro, toothless grandmothers will knit flags in the colours of the new Republic, and great-grandfathers will dig out the caps they wore at the front in 1936. It'll be beautiful, it'll be moving, it'll be magnificent. And then when evening comes, everyone will go home and collapse in front of the telly to watch "Wheel of Fortune" and Barça in the quarter final of the league cup. Catalonia really deserved that.

What an ignorant and repugnant article.

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Why so? In my opinion is perfect because is void of all emotion. When I read it I thought "well, this is what I would like to write, if it weren't because I'm part of the mess too and can't take whatever emotion I have". 

By the way, as I predicted, Mariano Rajoy has fed the conflict AGAIN and now the streets in Catalonia are on fire with demonstrations. However, the lack of international support has put Catalonia in a dangerous zone: they are already losing a lot in tourism and business. 

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45 minutes ago, karbatal said:

Why so? In my opinion is perfect because is void of all emotion. When I read it I thought "well, this is what I would like to write, if it weren't because I'm part of the mess too and can't take whatever emotion I have". 

By the way, as I predicted, Mariano Rajoy has fed the conflict AGAIN and now the streets in Catalonia are on fire with demonstrations. However, the lack of international support has put Catalonia in a dangerous zone: they are already losing a lot in tourism and business. 

OMG! What did this Rajoy do this time? He is so out of it.

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