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Spain...destroying themselves from the inside

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As I tried to explain here last Sunday,  this is a very complicated issue full of POISON and propaganda from both sides. 

It's a dangerous issue. As we have seen in UK,  USA, France or Germany,  to use social passions and hate to pursuit political aims is very dangerous and nobody wins. Only the elites that created the turmoil in the first place. 

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49 minutes ago, karbatal said:

If corruption means using overwhelming violence to pursuit ideas,  then Spain would be in the bottom of the list compared to countries who bomb population and destroy other countries. 

Let's get real OK?  Don't get all Pud Whacker in this thread as if this was the Trump one 

Corruption is abusing your power to get rich and help elites.  In Spain case that's happened with Conservative and Socialists in Madrid and with Conservatives in Catalonia.  The same very man who decided to pursue the referendum when less than 10% of the population declared being independent,  Artur Mas,  is no longer president of Catalonia because the far left expelled him from the process because he was part of a corruption net that has stolen money from Catalan people the past 30 years. 

What's the point of giving those opinions against a whole society like the Spanish one with absolute no idea?  Is this your way to have fun? 

No, my opinion is based upon -

1. What you guys have said about Spain in this thread.

2. What' I've read and watched in the news the last few months.

3. My own visits to Barcelona, one of my favourite cities.

The context of this discussion is 2017 democratic Europe. There's no point bringing up middle eastern dictatorships or whatever and saying "well at least it's not as bad as...."

Abusing power to get rich and help elites is a worldwide pandemic. I guess some countries are better at hiding or dressing it up than others.

The president or government of Catalonia are NOT Catalonia. People often forget that whoever is in power when a country gains independence does not automatically stay in power forever. The people choose their own government. These are all basic principles of modern democracies we're talking about here, the problem being that old fascistic habits are hard to break for some countries.

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7 minutes ago, karbatal said:

As I tried to explain here last Sunday,  this is a very complicated issue full of POISON and propaganda from both sides. 

It's a dangerous issue. As we have seen in UK,  USA, France or Germany,  to use social passions and hate to pursuit political aims is very dangerous and nobody wins. Only the elites that created the turmoil in the first place. 

The worldwide elites that control the worldwide economy do NOT want individual states to secede I can guarantee you that. 

The propaganda that's being fed into mainstream media about poor old democratic Spain and how these terrible separatists are causing so much trouble and such a bad example to the rest of beloved Europe..  is fooling no one. 

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1 hour ago, Kim said:

No, my opinion is based upon -

1. What you guys have said about Spain in this thread.

2. What' I've read and watched in the news the last few months.

3. My own visits to Barcelona, one of my favourite cities.

The context of this discussion is 2017 democratic Europe. There's no point bringing up middle eastern dictatorships or whatever and saying "well at least it's not as bad as...."

Abusing power to get rich and help elites is a worldwide pandemic. I guess some countries are better at hiding or dressing it up than others.

The president or government of Catalonia are NOT Catalonia. People often forget that whoever is in power when a country gains independence does not automatically stay in power forever. The people choose their own government. These are all basic principles of modern democracies we're talking about here, the problem being that old fascistic habits are hard to break for some countries.

Ok this is Trump Thread part II and I'm too old for this. 

I tried to explain here why there are much more to consider. And there's a lot to read if anybody wants. 

Anyone interested in something else can tag me here or Promise To Try or Django or Jesús.  If there's some doubt about any issue. We have been living here for decades.  In my case I unfortunately had to be kept informed about this because of my profession. Unfortunately because I prefer much more interesting issues.

In Promise to Try case his opinion is interesting because he lives in Basque Country and can very well understand the feelings of people from Catalonia. 

It would have been great if anyone from Catalonia added some info here.  With more reality our opinions and views would be richer!  

 

 

 

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Karbatal, this discussion has been really interesting for me. Hopefully you will continue keeping us informed, because this has been the news for me lately. I so hope both parties find a solution and Catalonia stays within Spain.

I personally feel like this whole situation could have been sponsored by states like Russia who would like to see EU weaker and dealing with internal problems instead of concentrating on expanding on the Western Balkans for example. Or playing a more prominent role on the international scene or concentrating on reforming itself deeply, like Macron has proposed. I see it as another Brexit really that weakens Spain and EU and I hope Catalonians don't fall for that trap.

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Just now, elijah said:

 

I personally feel like this whole situation could have been sponsored by states like Russia who would like to see EU weaker and dealing with internal problems instead of concentrating on expanding on the Western Balkans for example. Or playing a more prominent role on the international scene or concentrating on reforming itself deeply, like Macron has proposed. I see it as another Brexit really that weakens Spain and EU and I hope Catalonians don't fall for that trap.

that has been mentioned before sunday, I really don ´t know if Putin can be insise something...they said it was inside trump too, and even inside brexit...but I really don´t have any proof.

 

I´m thinking about the bank´s movements.They are going outside catalonia, IMO to keep the spanish market, but I don´t really know if they leaving is that bad for catalonia. I mean, do they pay taxes in there? I mean, BBVA pays taxes in the Basque country, but we have that atxation system that catalonia doesn´t have and were asking before they started talking about the independence.If they don´t pay taxes there, it´s only a way to clean their images in front of the unionist people.and apparently they leave and go to Valencia, a part of spain that the pro independence catalonians consider also theirs...win-win? again, banks are rats

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Just now, karbatal said:

As I tried to explain here last Sunday,  this is a very complicated issue full of POISON and propaganda from both sides. 

 

yes!!! some objective facts and a lot of crap poisoning everything.and propaganda to.. now apparently some policeman are saying sorry for what happened this friday, and blaming their bosses. I´ve seen the info in the basque tv: and still don´t know if it´s real or not.

same with the judge saying that voting this last sunday wasn´t ilegal. itr wasn´t legal, but not ilegal either. Even if it may weird for you, I come here trying to find a little bit of truth between what I see, what karbi says, and with what everybody from their country is reading or watching in their TVs or newspapers

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12 minutes ago, promise to try said:

yes!!! some objective facts and a lot of crap poisoning everything.and propaganda to.. now apparently some policeman are saying sorry for what happened this friday, and blaming their bosses. I´ve seen the info in the basque tv: and still don´t know if it´s real or not.

same with the judge saying that voting this last sunday wasn´t ilegal. itr wasn´t legal, but not ilegal either. Even if it may weird for you, I come here trying to find a little bit of truth between what I see, what karbi says, and with what everybody from their country is reading or watching in their TVs or newspapers

 

Oh it's true. The Government admitted that the violence was excessive.  At last! 

Well thanks God this weekend I don't have to work on the National / International section!!!!!!?  I have to work this weekend and was on the verge of tears of thinking that I had to deal with eight pages of Catalonia contents and they called me today (today I didn't go to work)  to tell me that I will be covering the Pilar Fiestas!!!!!  Yeeeeeeaaaah 

How do you say Fiestas del Pilar in English?  Major Feasts?  City Celebration Feast?  

Anyway I will be on the street surrounded by musicians and all that!!!!! Yay! 

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Just now, karbatal said:

 

Oh it's true. The Government admitted that the violence was excessive.  At last! 

Well thanks God this weekend I don't have to work on the National / International section!!!!!!?  I have to work this weekend and was on the verge of tears of thinking that I had to deal with eight pages of Catalonia contents and they called me today (today I didn't go to work)  to tell me that I will be covering the Pilar Fiestas!!!!!  Yeeeeeeaaaah 

How do you say Fiestas del Pilar in English?  Major Feasts?  City Celebration Feast?  

Anyway I will be on the street surrounded by musicians and all that!!!!! Yay! 

yep, and ada colau will be there too...I really like her!!!! anyways, have fun!

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12 hours ago, elijah said:

Karbatal, this discussion has been really interesting for me. Hopefully you will continue keeping us informed, because this has been the news for me lately. I so hope both parties find a solution and Catalonia stays within Spain.

I personally feel like this whole situation could have been sponsored by states like Russia who would like to see EU weaker and dealing with internal problems instead of concentrating on expanding on the Western Balkans for example. Or playing a more prominent role on the international scene or concentrating on reforming itself deeply, like Macron has proposed. I see it as another Brexit really that weakens Spain and EU and I hope Catalonians don't fall for that trap.

Omg lets blame Putin for everything :lmao:

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52 minutes ago, Nessie said:

Omg lets blame Putin for everything :lmao:

He officially and directly sponsored Le Penn campaign and her official goal was to fuck up the euro, propose such EU reforms that wouldn't have been accepted so in the end the goal was Frexit and break up of the EU. The link with Trump is under investigation. UK has stated that Russian hackers have been influencing the Brexit vote, on the Brexit side. What those 3 and Catalonia have in common? They created problems (some unsuccessfullly like in France) for EU so that it is dealing with internal problems and it have no time for any activities in the east like in Georgia, Ukraine etc...

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Just now, karbatal said:

 

Oh it's true. The Government admitted that the violence was excessive.  At last! 

 

and now the police is not happy with the government because of this!

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Omg now Artur Mas admits that Catalonia is not ready to be independent :lmao:

I am screaming :rotfl:

What's next?  That Puigdemont takes off a mask and all was some TV prank?  

Really we have the worst politicians. 

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3 hours ago, elijah said:

He officially and directly sponsored Le Penn campaign and her official goal was to fuck up the euro, propose such EU reforms that wouldn't have been accepted so in the end the goal was Frexit and break up of the EU. The link with Trump is under investigation. UK has stated that Russian hackers have been influencing the Brexit vote, on the Brexit side. What those 3 and Catalonia have in common? They created problems (some unsuccessfullly like in France) for EU so that it is dealing with internal problems and it have no time for any activities in the east like in Georgia, Ukraine etc...

I don't think there's any foreign interest here tbqh.  This all has an Almodovar "Made in Spain" sticker. 

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Just now, karbatal said:

Omg now Artur Mas admits that Catalonia is not ready to be independent :lmao:

 

and now they say that he didn´t want to say that...really, this shit it´s making brexit´s politicians look like nobel award winners. and it´s not almodoval: it´s "amanece que no es poco" 2.0

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yesterday they were marches all over spain, in favour of the dialogue, and without any type of flag.Great move, but I´m  afraid it wasn´t as successful as I would liked them to be.and, today there has been one in barcelona, in favour of catalonia being in spain.although the tv didn´t shoe any fascist symbols, apparently some people had them...vargas llosa was one of the talkers, and his speech was weird, because he was talking against the nationalisms in front of a square full of flags.

apparently the ones asking for the march are a griup of rich people from the ibex 35, the spanish stock market...

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Reports claim around one million marched today in Barcelona against the separation of Catalonia from Spain.

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5 hours ago, Je5u5 said:

Reports claim around one million marched today in Barcelona against the separation of Catalonia from Spain.

I wonder how many of them are actually Catalan.

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Just now, Nessie said:

I wonder how many of them are actually Catalan.

apparently not all of them...if the aim of the march was to make non referendum catalans see that they weren´t alone, it´s ok. But others were there to claim spanish unity and that catalonia is spain, so I don´t know if it really worked.Also, to have Mario Vargas Llosa talking against the independence...was Peru´s independence voted by all the spanish citizens? no. Really there are a lot of spanish, catalans that could have made more sense in there.

there is an spanish politician, he is retired now,julio anguita, that (as usual) has said a very wise thing about a march with the spanish flag. He says that they only use the spanish flag in the marchs when they want to talk about spanish´s unity,the typical patriotic topics ...never when there is a social issue involved.we use the basque flag for everything, maybe even too much! but it´s true, when I see spanish marching for something, let´s say, left winged, there is not a lot of flags. but when they march for the traidional families, against gay marriage...the flag appears.I guess karbatal can tell us something about the reason for that

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5 hours ago, Nessie said:

I wonder how many of them are actually Catalan.

Millions of people of Catalonia are against separatism. From Madrid only 1.000 people travelled to Barcelona. Even though some sectors in Catalonia want to believe that everybody there is like them, there are many, many people there who feel comfortable in Spain. 

That is not a positive thing sometimes, though, because problems come precisely when a society is divided. If all Catalonia felt independent, it would be easier. 

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I like a lot what Josep Borrell said during the march. I still can't understand what was writer Vargas Llosa there, though :lmao: He's not even Spanish! 

 But I like Josep Borrell. 

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55 minutes ago, karbatal said:

I like a lot what Josep Borrell said during the march. I still can't understand what was writer Vargas Llosa there, though :lmao: He's not even Spanish! 

 But I like Josep Borrell. 

He has dual citizenship, started living in Spain since the 50s and is a Nobel recipient. Why not? He is likely to have a more informed opinion than the average person there.

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9 minutes ago, Je5u5 said:

He has dual citizenship, started living in Spain since the 50s and is a Nobel recipient. Why not? He is likely to have a more informed opinion than the average person there.

To be quite honest, his image has always been linked to certain conservative circles. If the Government wanted to send a message, Vargas Llosa is not precisely the best decision. He may be a Nobel Prize winner and all that, but he doesnt' represent the progresist and modern Spain. 

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Just now, karbatal said:

To be quite honest, his image has always been linked to certain conservative circles. If the Government wanted to send a message, Vargas Llosa is not precisely the best decision. He may be a Nobel Prize winner and all that, but he doesnt' represent the progresist and modern Spain. 

there a lot people spain that could have done it better. yes, vargas llosa has double citizenship, but we all know he is so right winged that anything he is going to say will be understood as a message from the right part of the pp.anyways, he is the guy banging enrique iglesias´mother, he deserves to be in front of a march!!:lol:

 

that said, I think the cat. government is going to declare independence tomorrow. There will be a huge march, bigger than yesterday´s, and all hell will break loose after that. And my lovely Ada colau will be in the middle...

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