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Spain...destroying themselves from the inside


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Just now, Jazzy Jan said:

Instead of sending people to jail, how about having another referendum.  Put the vote to the people of Catalonia to decide their future.  If the majority don't want independence as people keep saying, this will either prove it or disprove it. 

there are elections for the parliament next december, and although it´s not a referendum, we think about it as one. I mean,if the pro referendum win, I don´t know what the spanish government will do with it.

and the idea of sending to jail the catalonian government is already giving bad press to spain´s political - juditial system.I guess the catalan pressident will be jailed eventually, but with a lot of tv cameras around him...

steven colbert is trending topic in spain: I thought he passed away, or had sexual relations with somebody that was underaged, but no...he is trending topic because of catalonia:

 

not that he is right on everything, actually he is wrong in a lot of things, but the battle of the image has started, and the spanish government is losing it

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4 hours ago, Jazzy Jan said:

Instead of sending people to jail, how about having another referendum.  Put the vote to the people of Catalonia to decide their future.  If the majority don't want independence as people keep saying, this will either prove it or disprove it. 

It's far more complicated than that.  There's been since the beginning a lot of myth surrounding the referendum: 

1. The Spanish constitution does not allow it.  For it to happen the constitution had to be changed and that would have to be approved by all Spanish people in a referendum.  

2. The independentists are not the majority.  A constitution cannot be changed every time a minority wants it.  There are two million independence seekers in a country with 44 million people.  In catalonia there are eight million people.  

I agree that three or four years ago a consultation would have stopped this situation.  That was the main mistake of the government of Spain.  And of course the abuse of the Police forces too.  They sent riot police in a situation far different to what those forces were trained for.  

In my opinion some people have to open their eyes and face reality: independence is impossible in EU at the moment (one side)  and people are angry and something should be done besides sending to jail (other side). 

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24 minutes ago, promise to try said:

well, low quaility democracy, was  the way a politicians back in the 90s-00s used to call it.

It has to be said that we had a huge problem with a group killing and kidnapping people, and the governments didn´t know what to do with it. so they decided that anything that sounded similar to what ETA was saying it had to be ilegal.And they think it worked, although in my opinion what  finished with them was that basque society was mostly super against them, and that some politicians started talking to them even if the PP disagreed.

The terrorist situation is way different and that's why I'm not commenting on it.  Most people in jail related to that were supporting the killing of innocent people. And supporting a system of extortion and fear.  If you support and give a political way to human trafficking,  for example,  you go to jail no matter if you are a politician.  The same is valid for terrorism.  They killed ONE THOUSAND innocent people, there is no excuse. 

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12 hours ago, sotos8 said:

Well ,with all due respect ,this does not look like a democracy at all ..it's more like a display of power from the spanish government .It's like our own referendum in Greece ,we voted for something and our government (with the pressure of the EU of course) , did the opposite ,for our own shake.... 

It's far more complicated than that.  Instead of blaming the system,  which has lots of flaws, let's blame the irresponsible politicians who promise things impossible to achieve.  Imagine Greece our of the EU having to fund itself?????  Frankly,  Tripas had a reality check.  

We may think lots of things,  we may want to be out of the EU/NATO/ euro,  whatever.  But then the reality and how is the world now makes us think again.  Look at the UK.  They pursue some new path and now they face that UK out of the EU is absurd,  because this is 2017, not 1974. 

In Catalonia case, if the treaties in the EU would accept new countries segregated from former ones,  I would understand the fight and the strength, but nowadays is sterile and it's already affecting their economy, not to mention THEIR social unrest.  And more important issues like unemployment or social protection is being overlooked there by their stubborn politicians.  

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Just now, karbatal said:

The terrorist situation is way different and that's why I'm not commenting on it.  Most people in jail related to that were supporting the killing of innocent people. And supporting a system of extortion and fear.  If you support and give a political way to human trafficking,  for example,  you go to jail no matter if you are a politician.  The same is valid for terrorism.  They killed ONE THOUSAND innocent people, there is no excuse. 

actually, that´s the problem, most of them weren´t supporting them! it was totally crazy, but I´m not proud to say that basque society is very good at looking to another place when there is a problem in front of them.we continue with our normal lives as if nothing happens (with the terrorism, with newspapers being closed, with peaceful people being imprisoned...as long as the athletic goes to UEFA, everything is ok.So sad.

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Just now, karbatal said:

It's far more complicated than that.  Instead of blaming the system,  which has lots of flaws, let's blame the irresponsible politicians who promise things impossible to achieve.  Imagine Greece our of the EU having to fund itself?????  Frankly,  Tripas had a reality check.  

We may think lots of things,  we may want to be out of the EU/NATO/ euro,  whatever.  But then the reality and how is the world now makes us think again.  Look at the UK.  They pursue some new path and now they face that UK out of the EU is absurd,  because this is 2017, not 1974. 

In Catalonia case, if the treaties in the EU would accept new countries segregated from former ones,  I would understand the fight and the strength, but nowadays is sterile and it's already affecting their economy, not to mention THEIR social unrest.  And more important issues like unemployment or social protection is being overlooked there by their stubborn politicians.  

the thing is that these politicians are part of the system!!! they´ve been selling impossible things, or very difficult things, or not very wise things to their people, and the system should have allowed them to do it, but they should have given them facts!!! let´s change the laws, but let´s give you some facts!reality! you are not as rich as you think you are! you are rich working with spain, not putside! being europe, not outside! and if you still want to be independent, at least you know the truth about what is going to happen to you!

but this idea of the saint unity of spain works soooo weeell to the PP people, especially to them, that I think they have prefered not to do anything to solve it because they knew they were going to face corruption problems, and with this independence thiung their people will still be with them!

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Just now, promise to try said:

actually, that´s the problem, most of them weren´t supporting them! it was totally crazy, but I´m not proud to say that basque society is very good at looking to another place when there is a problem in front of them.we continue with our normal lives as if nothing happens (with the terrorism, with newspapers being closed, with peaceful people being imprisoned...as long as the athletic goes to UEFA, everything is ok.So sad.

Well,  at least from the outside the Basque Country is far better now than it was only 15 years ago.  Your economy is the best in Spain,  the unemployment rate is the lowest.  Not to mention that once the Parties Law entered into force and those political parties supporting terrorism were illegal,  magically all riots ended (kale borroka). 

By the way,  did you see the unemployment maps yesterday?  Only in Basque Country,  Navarre and Aragon was unemployment going down,  with levels under 15%. Meanwhile in Catalonia it has risen the most.  Can you imagine that now Aragon is faring better than Catalonia??????  Something is really wrong there.  

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This situation in Catalonia is making me thinking a lot.  I don't agree AT ALL that these politicians face long time in jail.  

BUT 

Imagine a world were politicians had to face a trial if their actions purposely were not to make a better country,  but brought chaos and poverty? Imagine if Bush,  Blair and Aznar had to face now the consequences of Iraq and ISIS?  Imagine if the Greek former government had to face responsibilities for leading the country to bankruptcy?  

Maybe it's impossible to do,  buy they all stop their mandate and go home happy and far richer. The Catalan government was leading the region and the whole Spain to an abyss.  If the European Central Bank wasn't buying our debt,  the interests would be sky high now and we would need YEARS to pay back those interests.  That would mean more cuttings in Health,  Education... 

There's more than the romantic pursue of a new country here. There's a lot at stake and those politicians still are unable to see it. 

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yes, we are better than we were, although still don´t believeour economy is good.maybe because I work in a neigborhood that is far away from the fancy basque country...and the kale borroka finished when some judge decided that if you were going to burn something...your parents were going to pay for it! and also, yes, the fact that there are some special laws that so far, so far, only work in the basque country, were you can go 8 year to jail for burning a cashier.

 

and about the unemployment rates...well, I have never thought as aragon as a  place with a huge unemployment.but catalonia´s situation is going to get worst, because their internal spanish market is not going to be very well in the last months, and the external...I reallyd don´t know what they think about us anymore

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Just now, karbatal said:

This situation in Catalonia is making me thinking a lot.  I don't agree AT ALL that these politicians face long time in jail.  

BUT 

Imagine a world were politicians had to face a trial if their actions purposely were not to make a better country,  but brought chaos and poverty? Imagine if Bush,  Blair and Aznar had to face now the consequences of Iraq and ISIS?  Imagine if the Greek former government had to face responsibilities for leading the country to bankruptcy?  

Maybe it's impossible to do,  buy they all stop their mandate and go home happy and far richer. The Catalan government was leading the region and the whole Spain to an abyss.  If the European Central Bank wasn't buying our debt,  the interests would be sky high now and we would need YEARS to pay back those interests.  That would mean more cuttings in Health,  Education... 

There's more than the romantic pursue of a new country here. There's a lot at stake and those politicians still are unable to see it. 

there should be something for this!!!!!!!!! the politicians should justify all their desitions!!!! and face the consecuences of them! some of them destroy everything they touch, and they simply retire and have huuuge salaries for life! even when they have send their countries to hell!

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48 minutes ago, promise to try said:

there should be something for this!!!!!!!!! the politicians should justify all their desitions!!!! and face the consecuences of them! some of them destroy everything they touch, and they simply retire and have huuuge salaries for life! even when they have send their countries to hell!

If only we could scape from this depressing situation :lol:

Prison,  El Jueves,  corruption... 

I envy those not living in Spain. 

If only Madonna released something... 

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Just now, karbatal said:

If only we could scape from this depressing situation :lol:

Prison,  El Jueves,  corruption... 

I envy those not living in Spain. 

If only Madonna released something... 

that´s why you should go and see raphael performing!!!!!!!!! I will goto madrid to see him!:lol:

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7 hours ago, promise to try said:

well, now that the belgian judges are not going to imprison or give back to spain to Puigdemont that easily, the spanish journalists and politicians have stopped laughing about him!! some say that he may even have a plan!

To be fair most people (well normal people)  think the petition of the Attorney is disproportionate.  I sincerely hope this madness stops and we all work together to build bridges,  not seek revenge!  

This stopped being funny the second people were imprisoned.  

 

 

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2 minutes ago, promise to try said:

really, everytime they tell me rajoy is stupid...he is brilliant, everything, he is doing everything he wants to do without any problem!

He was the person in charge of the incredibly efficient PR machine during the first Aznar legislature. He was the one how coined the catchphrase "España va bien" and he made everybody from his party, allover Spain, repeat that mantra. That was a brillian move after the Felipe González corruption and inestability. He lead the party to the absolute majority in the year 2000. The thing is that he is brillian in the shadows, he has zero charisma and eloquency. That's why it was a mistake in the first place when he was designated as sucessor of Aznar. But I agree, he is not stupid at all. Just look how good he worked the whole Podemos/Venezuela. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well, in case anybody is still interested about this mess, just a tiny update to say that the independentists admitted yesterday that Catalonia was not ready at all to be independent, that they knew that perfectly and that they are a minority. 

It is only a tiny little bit of information, you know...

 

:lmao:

 

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8 minutes ago, karbatal said:

Well, in case anybody is still interested about this mess, just a tiny update to say that the independentists admitted yesterday that Catalonia was not ready at all to be independent, that they knew that perfectly and that they are a minority. 

It is only a tiny little bit of information, you know...

 

:lmao:

 

Were those the ministers or the ppl of the Putchdemon's party?

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2 hours ago, elijah said:

Were those the ministers or the ppl of the Putchdemon's party?

They were from the coalition. ERC. 

Artur Mas predecessor of Puigdemont already said that ON THE 6 OCTOBER in a interview for the Financial Times. 

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  • 3 weeks later...
6 hours ago, promise to try said:

yesterday I saw in a big spanish store, a box with The colbys´ two seasons, and it remind me of this topic!!!:wacko:

 

anyways, soon the electoral campain starts in catalonia to elect a new government.

 

 

What about last week when Puigdemont said that he wants to do a referendum to get Catalonia OUT OF THE EU???? :lol:

Oh God, he's so embarasssing. And his party said to ERC that if they don't support Puigdemont as the candidate, they will agree with article 155 :rotfl: They are such mercenaries. 

Anyway, I hope they all are excarcelated today and all that. I'm sure non of them will try again to approve another absurd law about independence and maybe this time they start working for Catalonia instead, and not for themselves. 

 

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2 hours ago, karbatal said:

Anyway, I hope they all are excarcelated today and all that. I'm sure non of them will try again to approve another absurd law about independence and maybe this time they start working for Catalonia instead, and not for themselves. 

 

this would be different in the basque country.If they send us to jail, we would go to jail, but never go against our principles...I´m really surprised with the catalonian politicians, they behave like teenagers

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25 minutes ago, promise to try said:

this would be different in the basque country.If they send us to jail, we would go to jail, but never go against our principles...I´m really surprised with the catalonian politicians, they behave like teenagers

Frankly, the Basque Country had one week ago the best deal ever with the Spanish Government, an unfair deal that makes you first class citizens with less taxes and we second or third class citizens. 

If the Basque Country complains in the next 10 years they deserve all the plagues from Egypt to fall on them. Because I am very VERY angry with this issue. But of course, Rajoy neeeds the Basque nationalist to support him and not to be angry after otehr nationalists in Spain were punished... 

Nationalism in Spain is the biggest joke. And so unfair. 

 

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On 2017/12/1 at 5:57 PM, karbatal said:

Frankly, the Basque Country had one week ago the best deal ever with the Spanish Government, an unfair deal that makes you first class citizens with less taxes and we second or third class citizens. 

If the Basque Country complains in the next 10 years they deserve all the plagues from Egypt to fall on them. Because I am very VERY angry with this issue. But of course, Rajoy neeeds the Basque nationalist to support him and not to be angry after otehr nationalists in Spain were punished... 

Nationalism in Spain is the biggest joke. And so unfair. 

 

I don´t really know about the numbers.I´ve read about both things (being fair, and that we have been paying to much for decades because our economy is not the 6% of the spanish one since the mid 80s, and we´ve been paying as if it was).The only  places were I have read about being unfair for the rest is in El mundo newspaper and to ciudadanos political party.I believe you if you tell me that our region is going to pay less taxes than yours, but it sounds weird to me. I mean, does the PP need PNV´s votes that much? can´t they find them in another political party? is ciudadanos going to give them the votes for the spanish budgets even when they think is unfair? (because I guess is PP+ciudadans+pnv, right?)are they in a position where they can lose votes just to "give the pnv a prize"?

If the  numbers are unfair, hopefully they will change them.The supreme court or whoever is in charge of these things (well, now that I´m  writing this, they  are all probably PP supporters...)

But I see a bigger movement, against the Basque taxation system itself, not just against this latest negotiation...And this can be a new problem for spain. A new problem ala catalonia when they saw their new laws cut even though they had been voted by the spanish parliament.the beginning of something bigger. Not if they go against the last numbers, but if they go against the taxation system.

Shit, are we going to start having info from a lot of different places telling us totally different things? when are the spanish general elections again????

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On 2017/12/1 at 5:57 PM, karbatal said:

Frankly, the Basque Country had one week ago the best deal ever with the Spanish Government, an unfair deal that makes you first class citizens with less taxes and we second or third class citizens. 

If the Basque Country complains in the next 10 years they deserve all the plagues from Egypt to fall on them. Because I am very VERY angry with this issue. But of course, Rajoy neeeds the Basque nationalist to support him and not to be angry after otehr nationalists in Spain were punished... 

Nationalism in Spain is the biggest joke. And so unfair. 

 

and please!!! the government and all the basque region, it´s different!!! is as if I was thinking as the spaniards as pp voters only!!

 or all people in aragon were bunbury´s...I saw him yesterday live in santander.I´m so in love today.I want to suck his dick so badly now!!!!

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