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Spain...destroying themselves from the inside


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9 hours ago, promise to try said:

yes, we may be stronger united, if we want to be united, and if the union has been made  with respect, empathy...

also, I don´t really think catalonia´s case is related with greed. ok, maybe some. but others don´t, others may see that their money goes to the banks and to pay with taxes things that are not related to social issues.and others should know that they will have less money outside of spain, at least in the next decades... I really think a lot of people from catalonia that are in favour of the referendum are against the independece, they only want a way to push the spanish government to change a few laws. but again, only a part of them.

There you go. You said it yourself. Don't try to make out as if money and wealth has got nothing to do with the crisis because it has a lot to do with it. I spoke to people from Barcelona and they admitted the spin these separatistic politicians are giving to the Catalonia people is that they're better off alone in terms of wealth and money. And in the same vein as the Northen Italy referendums they want to make up their own laws on immigration and we all know what that means... I'm sick of poeple trying to be intellectual and acting like historians when we all know why this is happening and what's really behind it.

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Just now, MeakMaker said:

There you go. You said it yourself. Don't try to make out as if money and wealth has got nothing to do with the crisis because it has a lot to do with it. I spoke to people from Barcelona and they admitted the spin these separatistic politicians are giving to the Catalonia people is that they're better off alone in terms of wealth and money. And in the same vein as the Northen Italy referendums they can make up their own laws on immigration and we all know what that means... I'm sick of poeple trying to be intellectual and acting like historians when we all know why this is happening and what's really behind it.

in catalonia there has been a % of pro independence people since...without thinking about the money.same in the basque country.

others are so left winged that I have the feeling they think  they can change their way of working in a smaller country, but always as a first step to spread the new system.

Others were confortable with a pact with spain, while it worked apparently they were openly happy (this didn´t happen in the basque country, there was always the big BUT of the autodetermination),at lest that what they showed as for decades. And, I guess some of these people are the ones unhappy with the taxation system. The famous "españa nos roba",which I totally disagree with,where they pay a lot of taxes and only a small part comes back, and meanwhile they have sconomic problems. Some because of the corruption, some because they have spent too much, and some because apparently the spanish government has fucked them (again, am I the only one that remembers a spanish minister saying "we have destroyed their health care system"?). And I think, if PP´s government had been inteligent enough, they could have found something in common with this part of the society to do something together.So, is it about the money? for some people I guess it is, but not so much about greed but more about lack of tranparency and dialogue.

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Just now, promise to try said:

I'm sick of poeple trying to be intellectual and acting like historians when we all know why this is happening and what's really behind it.

actually, I don´t know what is behind it...because in the last decade the movements to go against the spanish autonomous system from the far right has been growing a lot.I don´t know if all of this is going to be used to re centralizate everything.another lie, that has grown as fast as the "España nos roba", is the " the autonomous state it´s too expensive to be kept".No, it´s not, if politicians, banks, multinacionals...don´t steal money.

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6 hours ago, MeakMaker said:

I know people from Barcelona and Madrid. I get info from them. U happy Jazzy? Please, don't read my post if you don't like what I'm saying. Everybody here with a brain knows exactly what I'm trying to say. Some of you are being way too intellectual without giving no concrete solutions while our world is disintegrating in front of our eyes. I'm sure if you were in Catalania you would have gone on the streets demanding for independence. Is that right? What about the people in Catalonia who don't want independence and want to stay united with Spain? Are they all crazy and stupid and with no knowledge of history like myself? 

Oh now you have friends from Barcelona as well as Madrid? LOL A couple of weeks ago you were wailing about how you knew nothing about this situation and that's why you were in this thread talking complete nonsense and discounting everything people were telling you. 

Yes, let's not be intellectual. Let's ignore thousands of years of politics, geography and history. Let's destroy all borders, all link hands, and sing kumbaya. Roll eyes to heaven.

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50 minutes ago, Kim said:

Oh now you have friends from Barcelona as well as Madrid? LOL A couple of weeks ago you were wailing about how you knew nothing about this situation and that's why you were in this thread talking complete nonsense and discounting everything people were telling you. 

Yes, let's not be intellectual. Let's ignore thousands of years of politics, geography and history. Let's destroy all borders, all link hands, and sing kumbaya. Roll eyes to heaven.

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

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Intellectual shaming ?? :rotfl:And he's talking about nazism, :rotfl:

Time for you to take a dictionnary, @MeakMaker and take a look at UTOPIA. You should learn a little, just by reading that. 

Btw, having a friend in Spain doesn't make you a specialist on the question.  

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1 hour ago, Kim said:

Oh now you have friends from Barcelona as well as Madrid? LOL A couple of weeks ago you were wailing about how you knew nothing about this situation and that's why you were in this thread talking complete nonsense and discounting everything people were telling you. 

Yes, let's not be intellectual. Let's ignore thousands of years of politics, geography and history. Let's destroy all borders, all link hands, and sing kumbaya. Roll eyes to heaven.

You know how many people from Spain come visiting Birmingham? So now I am not even allowed to make friends with people because they think different from you? And yes that was a month ago. So what's your point? That I'm lying? 

And once again you're trying to dismiss what I'm saying. All I said is that I can see this crisis happening in the same vein as many other events happening in Europe and America. What's so wrong in that? Many journalists are saying the same. These people from Barcelona I met in Birmingham were all against the independence and even said if it takes place it would damage their region. Why aren't their opinion valid? Because it doesn't fit your thinking?! 

Im sick of you lot twisting my words so you can all redicule me hoping to shut me up. I won't. Just because I don't get support in this thread and you guys are ganging up against me I won't shut up. I told you to block me or not reply to my post... you keep doing it mate as to prove a point.  Are you so obsessed  with me you can't help yourself? If i come across stupid it will be my problem why you need to be such an asshole? 

                                                               You Took My Words And Made A Trap For Silly Fools

 

 

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11 minutes ago, runa said:

Intellectual shaming ?? :rotfl:And he's talking about nazism, :rotfl:

Time for you to take a dictionnary, @MeakMaker and take a look at UTOPIA. You should learn a little, just by reading that. 

Btw, having a friend in Spain doesn't make you a specialist on the question.  

So who's the specialist here? Because you think the politicians who have created all this mess are the specialists? Or maybe you are.. Seems like everybody is a specialist then. 

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4 minutes ago, MeakMaker said:

You know how many people from Spain come visiting Birmingham? So now I am not even allowed to make friends with people because they think different from you? And yes that was a month ago. So what's your point? That I'm lying? 

And once again you're trying to dismiss what I'm saying. All I said is that I can see this crisis happening in the same vein as many other events happening in Europe and America. What's so wrong in that? Many journalists are saying the same. These people from Barcelona I met in Birmingham were all against the independence and even said if it takes place it would damage their region. 

Im sick of you lot twisting my words so you can all redicule me hoping to shut me up. I won't. Just because I don't get support in this thread and you guys are ganging up against me I won't shut up. I told you to block me or not reply to my post... you keep doing it mate as to prove a point.  Are you so obsessed  with me you can't help yourself? If i come across stupid it will be my problem why you need to be such an asshole? 

                                                               You Took My Words And Made A Trap For Silly Fools

 

 

Yeah that's it, make an arse of yourself then blame everyone else when you get responses you don't like. 

Yes I do believe you're lying about meeting anyone from Barcelona (and I pity anyone from that beautiful city finding themselves in a dump like Birmingham)

Stop playing the victim and grow up.

In fact, I'll just do what everyone else usually  does and ignore your dumb posts - seeing as you don't seem to understand what a DISCUSSION FORUM is for.

Don't forget to clean that dummy you just spat out before putting it back in yer mouth.

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5 minutes ago, Kim said:

Yeah that's it, make an arse of yourself then blame everyone else when you get responses you don't like. 

Yes I do believe you're lying about meeting anyone from Barcelona (and I pity anyone from that beautiful city finding themselves in a dump like Birmingham)

Stop playing the victim and grow up.

In fact, I'll just do what everyone else usually  does and ignore your dumb posts - seeing as you don't seem to understand what a DISCUSSION FORUM is for.

Don't forget to clean that dummy you just spat out before putting it back in yer mouth.

This is why I will never agree with you and people who think like you. You just come across as an asshole. No amount of knowledge will change that. And me playing the victim? Hahaah You don't know me and as a matter of fact you don't even know that many Spanish people are studying in Birmingham.. Trust me mate you don't know everything.  

 

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7 minutes ago, MeakMaker said:

This is why I will never agree with you and people who think like you. You just come across as an asshole. No amount of knowledge will change that. And me playing the victim? Hahaah You don't know me and as a matter of fact you don't even know that many Spanish people are studying in Birmingham.. Trust me mate you don't know everything.  

 

I don't care if I come across as an asshole. I take others as I find them. Be nice to me, I'll be nice back. It's quite simple.

Do you care that you come across dumb as a box of rocks? I WOULD care about that.

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8 hours ago, promise to try said:

actually, I don´t know what is behind it...because in the last decade the movements to go against the spanish autonomous system from the far right has been growing a lot.I don´t know if all of this is going to be used to re centralizate everything.another lie, that has grown as fast as the "España nos roba", is the " the autonomous state it´s too expensive to be kept".No, it´s not, if politicians, banks, multinacionals...don´t steal money.

The way I look at it is that people EVRYWHERE are getting fed up with our governments and yes it's because of politicians, multinationals, banks, the elite, unemployment, immigration and inequality but just because we have finally come to realise that the system is not working that doesn't mean we have to fuck everything up. I think its not necessarily bad to give autonomy and independence to a region but it should come from a place of dialogue, peace and understanding. In my opinion the majority of Catalonians taking on the streets chanting Catalonia with flags as if they're parading at a football match seem to be driven by same sentiments and mentality that voted Trump and Brexit and far right parties in parts of Europe. It's also same thing that's happening in Northen Italy with the referendums. I know you guys are saying they're not related and they all stem from different situations but fact that all these crises are unfolding at this very moment should ring a bell. That's my point. I would be missing the mark if I was alone in thinking that but many other people ( Spanish people included) have shared the same thinking. To just dismiss what I say as I know nothing and I'm a stupid and blah, blah, blah and using offensive talks against me and my view only serves to stop a dialogue with some valid points. 

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20 minutes ago, Kim said:

I don't care if I come across as an asshole. I take others as I find them. Be nice to me, I'll be nice back. It's quite simple.

Do you care that you come across dumb as a box of rocks? I WOULD care about that.

I never called you an idiot or lecture you on something using attitude though . I never said you know nothing about this and that and I certainly never tried to suggest you're a liar. And again just because you don't get or agree with what I'm saying that doesn't make me dumb as a box of rocks. You clearly are siding with the separatists justifying their need for independence. At first I wasn't sure about what to think because I had no idea but yes I did happen to meet some Spanish people lately. They were from a place called Sabadel or something but they said they're basically from Barcelona and I did ask what they think of the referendum and they said these separatists are crazy. They actually seemed to be very concerned and scared because they fear a civil war.  And yes we talked about Brexit and the mentality behind these referendums and I kind of came to realise people's sentiments are exactly the same.  You can say what you want but in the end each side has their own points.. so to just dismiss one side because you don't agree with them that doesn't make you the clever one and as a reflection doesn't make me as dumb as a box of rocks either. Just saying.... 

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And if you met catalonians who wish to be independant what would be your thoughts ? They're always 2 sides on a medal.

Unfortunately, as long as the catalonians will be refused a legal referendum, to express their voice legally, we'll never know the answer. Maybe a majority wants to get out of Spain, maybe that's just a minority. But to refrain their rights to take their own decision is so wrong and anti-democratic. And it leads to chaos and civil war. 

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OMG THIS THREAD IS A MESS 

:rotfl: 

Who would ever tought that forgotten Spain would make a thread to bitch, insult, agree, love and hate at THIS LEVEL????

And it's such a pity that nobody from Catalonia is nowadays a member of the forum. I am sure that we could have learned a lot. 

Anyway, people in Spain (well, in my Facebook :lmao: which is not precisely representative of a country) is finally waking up and instead of being judges of all (me included) we are no discussing other things like the corruption cases that are being judged in Spain. 

Re-Catalonia, I don't think I have an opinion anymore. I'm too exahusted. Kudos to Iholdi (Promise To Try) to keep posting and trying to clarify things. Love you, Iholdi. 

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1 minute ago, runa said:

And if you met catalonians who wish to be independant what would be your thoughts ? They're always 2 sides on a medal.

Unfortunately, as long as the catalonians will be refused a legal referendum, to express their voice legally, we'll never know the answer. Maybe a majority wants to get out of Spain, maybe that's just a minority. But to refrain their rights to take their own decision is so wrong and anti-democratic. And it leads to chaos and civil war. 

It was a minority some years ago. Now I am sure they are majority. The situation is got out of control and no meassure for any part (Madrid or Bacelona) is helping. Because people always forget that when this is somehow quieter, there will be still 8.-10 million people in Catalonia who will be divided for years. Which is  pity, because Catalonia was an example on how to feel different but to share your space with other different people. I doubt this can be recovered soon. 

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3 minutes ago, karbatal said:

And it's such a pity that nobody from Catalonia is nowadays a member of the forum. I am sure that we could have learned a lot. 

I agree !

:rotfl:political threads are always a mess :rotfl:

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3 minutes ago, runa said:

I agree !

:rotfl:political threads are always a mess :rotfl:

Well, this reminds me to my family on Sunday. We all get together and it's pandemonium: political arguments, hands slamming tables, somebody getting up in a rage! We are the most Mediterranean family in the world. Then we part and the next day we are all as if nothing had happened. I recall one day my brother said "Well, if anybody is stupid enough to hold a grudge because of these issues, then he wouldn't be here in the first place". I found the sentence really wise and I hope it applies to this thread. Because everybody posting here is very dear to me. 

 

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54 minutes ago, runa said:

But to refrain their rights to take their own decision is so wrong and anti-democratic. And it leads to chaos 

This is the point that seems to always go unanswered, yet it's the only point that we are actually making.

And yes, there's a reason why those of us with manners and class (ie. me :sassy:) were taught never to discuss religion or politics in polite company.

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55 minutes ago, karbatal said:

Well, this reminds me to my family on Sunday. We all get together and it's pandemonium: political arguments, hands slamming tables, somebody getting up in a rage! We are the most Mediterranean family in the world. Then we part and the next day we are all as if nothing had happened. I recall one day my brother said "Well, if anybody is stupid enough to hold a grudge because of these issues, then he wouldn't be here in the first place". I found the sentence really wise and I hope it applies to this thread. Because everybody posting here is very dear to me. 

 

I'm with your brother 100% .

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OMG!

The situation is HILAROUS NOW

As expected, Puigdemont will call for new elections instead of independence. As expected because it was never the intention of those elites to be independent, but to keep the stortion of the Madrid Government and get more money. And by the way, he send in the last second some alegations to the Spanish Senate regarding the 155 article and they said that it was so late becase "we had a problem with the fax as the paper got stuck". I AM NOT JOKING. 

But what happened some minutes ago? The other parties that conform the alliance with Puigdemont and TRULY want the independence are calling Puigdemont a traitor!!!!. And are asking all the students that were on strike to go to the Catalan Government Palace to demonstrate :lmao:

OMG I've never seen anything more ridiculous in my whole life. Who is the writer of this mess, Lady Gaga? 

This seems to be even more absurd as hours pass, so keep tuned! 

 

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1 hour ago, karbatal said:

OMG!

The situation is HILAROUS NOW

As expected, Puigdemont will call for new elections instead of independence. As expected because it was never the intention of those elites to be independent, but to keep the stortion of the Madrid Government and get more money. And by the way, he send in the last second some alegations to the Spanish Senate regarding the 155 article and they said that it was so late becase "we had a problem with the fax as the paper got stuck". I AM NOT JOKING. 

But what happened some minutes ago? The other parties that conform the alliance with Puigdemont and TRULY want the independence are calling Puigdemont a traitor!!!!. And are asking all the students that were on strike to go to the Catalan Government Palace to demonstrate :lmao:

OMG I've never seen anything more ridiculous in my whole life. Who is the writer of this mess, Lady Gaga? 

This seems to be even more absurd as hours pass, so keep tuned! 

 

But what about the separatists and independentistics who have been marching on the streets? Are they easily going to give up? Or they're going to rebel as suggested. 

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21 minutes ago, MeakMaker said:

But what about the separatists and independentistics who have been marching on the streets? Are they easily going to give up? Or they're going to rebel as suggested. 

They're not giving up,  of course.  They truly do believe in independence.  They're already occupying the place before the Government.  

Puigdemont cancelled his speech.  They say he will speak later. He may be expecting some gesture from Madrid?  Everybody is appalled at the giant mess that those people made in Catalonia.  

Anything can happen today. 

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Oh dear, as Rajoy didn't give in suspending article 155, now Puigdemont won't call for elections. Once again, the Madrid government seems to enjoy this mess (as very convenientely it covers all the corruption scandals that are being judge these days). 

Now I am lost about what is to happen. 

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3 minutes ago, promise to try said:

yes or not! that´s what I want to know! yes or ont to anything! independence, new regional constitution, new elections! yes or not!!!, jesus! thank god this process is by catalonian´s and not by people from galicia!!!

Well, Rajoy is from Galicia :lmao:

Well, I expect the Catalan Parliament will declare the independence and then tomorrow starts 155, that is, the autonomy is suspended. Then there will be new elections... 

Or maybe the Parliament will call for new elections, as people from Puigdemont's party do not want independence? 

Stay tuned! 

Resultado de imagen de popcorn gif

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