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Spain...destroying themselves from the inside


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I have to say that rajoy has been acting quite wisely so far, ok, but they did the first of october was a mayor shit, but he is doing good with the non use of the 155 so far. maybe today everything will change...and I think that´s what the most radical people between the pro referendum want, a huge mistake from spain´s government´s side again.

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12 hours ago, runa said:

I totally agree.

Just the fact the author says : "Independence is legitimate when you want to break free of tyranny or oppression." is the proof he has zero knowledge of what he is talking about. 

Really?  This is precisely what caught my eye,  because normally the third reason for independence is money.  And this is the case.  

Feeling you are another nation altogether?  Yes.  If there's the BIG majority of the population.  If not... How on earth can that decision be imposed? 

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2 minutes ago, promise to try said:

I have to say that rajoy has been acting quite wisely so far, ok, but they did the first of october was a mayor shit, but he is doing good with the non use of the 155 so far. maybe today everything will change...and I think that´s what the most radical people between the pro referendum want, a huge mistake from spain´s government´s side again.

Exactly.  

 

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5 hours ago, karbatal said:

Really?  This is precisely what caught my eye,  because normally the third reason for independence is money.  And this is the case.  

Feeling you are another nation altogether?  Yes.  If there's the BIG majority of the population.  If not... How on earth can that decision be imposed? 

Franco's regime banned the use of Catalan in government-run institutions and during public events, and also the Catalan institutions of self-government were abolished. How on earth can that decision be imposed to them ? That was almost a genocid. And you think they will forget ? 

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1 minute ago, runa said:

Franco's regime banned the use of Catalan in government-run institutions and during public events, and also the Catalan institutions of self-government were abolished. How on earth can that decision be imposed to them ? That was almost a genocid. And you think they will forget ? 

This post is so wrong in so many levels :lmao:

First of all, Franco's dictatureship was in ALL SPAIN. Gays were in jail. Women couldn't have a personal accout in the bank, for example. There was jail if you critisized the regime... Well, the regular dictatureship. And only people from Catalonia suffered???? :rotfl: For God's sake, my mother was so poor that she nearly starved, my grandfather was about to be shoot because somebody had dennounce that he was against Franco.. And yet, of course, everything evolves around Catalonia when it comes with Franco. 

It is this idea whas is given any crediblity to those people. Always the same victimism. In my region we couldn't celebrate feasts that were popular for CENTURIES. Popular celebrations were banned. The regional dance and singe was scrapped and some artificial creation was imposed! And of course, we have moved on but poor people from Catalonia were so crushed. 

And even with all explained. Even with all the pain that that dictatureship brought in Spain, it was never a genocide. Do you know what a genocide is? Do you really think that Franco went to Catalonia to exterminate people? Or to any other region? It was not even a genocide for gays, even tough some were killed during the war and afterwards and you could end up in jails. And if it wasn't for gays, much less for any regular citizen from Catalonia.

Oh dear...  The ABSURDITY. 

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Now that I think about it. We gays were so ill treated during Franco times and even afterwards... Maybe we should all gather in Chueca, in Madrid, and establish a new country there? After all, we suffered so much decades ago.. We couldn't express ourselves. How can we FORGET! 

It's unbearable... Somebody helps the gays in Spain, please. We are the country in the world with the most aceptation of homosexuality, but WE CANNOT FORGET!!!! Help Spanish gays! 

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I know that Franco's regime was everywhere in Spain. I'm not that stupid. 

But you must admit that, to their eyes, Spain may still look like the enemy even if they got all their rights back in the late 70s. That's what I meant. 

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2 minutes ago, karbatal said:

Now that I think about it. We gays were so ill treated during Franco times and even afterwards... Maybe we should all gather in Chueca, in Madrid, and establish a new country there? After all, we suffered so much decades ago.. We couldn't express ourselves. How can we FORGET! 

It's unbearable... Somebody helps the gays in Spain, please. We are the country in the world with the most aceptation of homosexuality, but WE CANNOT FORGET!!!! Help Spanish gays! 

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And btw, yes gay people are still fighting for their rights because of what happened in many societies back then. You might have forget but, thank god, some people didn't.

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Just now, runa said:

I know that Franco's regime was everywhere in Spain. I'm not that stupid. 

But you must admit that, to their eyes, Spain may still look like the enemy even if they got all their rights back in the late 70s. That's what I meant. 

Spain may look the enemy if they are adoctrinated to do that. Because, frankly, the rest of us have moved on. Even the jews in Germany moved on.

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3 minutes ago, runa said:

And you're the one saying we can't discuss in this thread. congrats.

Discussion is open if we speak about facts. If we say there was a genocide in CAtalonia, which is so wrong in many levels and incredibly absurd, then of course anybody who knows the issue will answer back. 

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5 minutes ago, runa said:

The jews have moved on?? :rotfl:And why don't you ask if the First Nations in Canada have moved on?? :rotfl:

That was the best, I'm out of here. 

Well, if anybody in Germany still wants to feel oppressed by what happened 70 years ago, they are free to do it. 

There's one thing being VIGILANT so those horrible times aren't back and another thing to feel a victim decades afterwards, in the case of Spain. 

Why don't people focus on what really has value? And that is the FEELING OF WANTING TO BE INDEPENDENT.  Whenever a person tells me that, I have nothing against it. They have the right to feel whatever they want.  It's when they use Franco or whatever stupid opression when I don't know if I should laugh or cry. 

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1 hour ago, runa said:

But you must admit that, to their eyes, Spain may still look like the enemy even if they got all their rights back in the late 70s. That's what I meant. 

Yes, but the point Karba was making I think was that Franco's Spain looked like the enemy to a lot of people from all over Spain, not just Catalans. And its really stupid for Catalans to justify their plea for independence with a dictatorship that has been over for 40 years. If that was the case, they should ve pressed on the independence at the time of Franco, not 40ty years later. As I said, there seem to be 0 international back up for this independence cause because its seems like its due only to greed. Barcelona has zero grounds to claim it is "oppressed". They might be "oppressed" to help poorer regions of Spain but thats pretty much sums up the oppression.

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Just now, runa said:

 

But you must admit that, to their eyes, Spain may still look like the enemy even if they got all their rights back in the late 70s. That's what I meant. 

ok, I will use my basque independentist knowledge in here to see if I can clarify something.

Spain, as a country, is the  fascist enemy only for very old people, and not even for all of them. I´m 42, Franco died the same year I was born, and we don´t accept a lot of simbols from spain, because older people have shown us they are from a fascist country. But we are happy going on holidays to andalucia or cantabria, having friends "from Spain", buying a house in a small town in burgos...we have been tought, at home, not at school, to avoid the word España (we use estado español more, we usually only use españa when we are not clearly mentioning hour region, and the same with france), to dislike the spanish anthem, not to wear red and yellow clothes at the same time...but it´s nothing that goes trough the brain, is more a  hot feeling. If you talk to somebody my age about this, we can´t make a rule about it. I mean, we know that spain doesn´t mean fascism, or that the spanish people are just regular people that "love their things" with a very clear  "their" and "our".we know that there are cunts in all places, all cultures and all national feelings, including ours.And I´m talking about my generation, that is the  last one that lived franco´s times, his last years at least. Younger people are more open minded about spanish simbols, or spain as their country. Yes, they may not feel spanish or not entirely spanish, but it´s not a bad thing for them if they say "here in spain, our football selection,our king".That doesn´t mean they accept the siytem, but franco´s 40 years are very far from them, in the same way it´s very far from me the second civil war from the 19th century (my granmother´s gramfather was there).So, for them spain is not an enemy.The estate, the economical sistem,may be.In my case spain is not either, the estate system is. But I am more than satisfy if we fight in a parliament.And if they change the laws not to allowe us do things, but just to do things because it´s a right, then perfect. My only problem would be that all my country is not inside spain.

And I have the feeling it should be very similar for a lot of catalonians.PP is the enemy, not spain.The system is the enemy. not spaniards.In fact, a lot of them feel spanish, even if they are against this political-economic system or laws.

 

But, politicians both in spain and catalonia, they are fucking everything right now.  apparently some say "spain steals us",when is not spain, is the system, some politicians, banks or whatever, not spain. and yes, the fact that the government´s political party was created by a franco´s minister, doesn´t help to clary things.But They are using people´s feeling to go against other people, that happen to have feelings too, and that happen to have crappy politicians too, that are using their pèople´s feeling to validate their shitty politics

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Just now, elijah said:

Yes, but the point Karba was making I think was that Franco's Spain looked like the enemy to a lot of people from all over Spain, not just Catalans. And its really stupid for Catalans to justify their plea for independence with a dictatorship that has been over for 40 years. If that was the case, they should ve pressed on the independence at the time of Franco, not 40ty years later. As I said, there seem to be 0 international back up for this independence cause because its seems like its due only to greed. Barcelona has zero grounds to claim it is "oppressed". They might be "oppressed" to help poorer regions of Spain but thats pretty much sums up the oppression.

I don´t think it´s only greed behind pro independence. Some people really feel spain is  not their country, others feel that in spain will be impossible to have a better social/economical system because all the pp voters and the way the votes are counted for the senate,and yes, others only want to have their money for them, without thinking that the money they think is only theirs, is the money that they earn when they work with spain.

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Just now, elijah said:

Yes, but the point Karba was making I think was that Franco's Spain looked like the enemy to a lot of people from all over Spain, not just Catalans. And its really stupid for Catalans to justify their plea for independence with a dictatorship that has been over for 40 years. If that was the case, they should ve pressed on the independence at the time of Franco, not 40ty years later. As I said, there seem to be 0 international back up for this independence cause because its seems like its due only to greed. Barcelona has zero grounds to claim it is "oppressed". They might be "oppressed" to help poorer regions of Spain but thats pretty much sums up the oppression.

-that´s what a lot of people tought in the basque country.That was the moment "to give everything", but remember that the army was very pro franco back then, and they woudn´t accepted that.and on the  other hand, is when ETA starts killing like hell, militars and policemen, not civilians (if they killed any civilians, it wasn´t because they wanted to kill them, except in one case, Rian, the man behind a nuclear central for the basque country)

 

-usually the revolutions have a rich leader...that´s not something new (bolivar, che... weren´t poor people).I still don´t understand why they don´t have more problems with the powers in these regions, because it seems to me that they are letting them die...I guess right now they are way better than they were in franco´çs times or before, andthat´s why older people are happy even thought they are poor.

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Thanks for the input, @promise to try, very interesting.

Cultural identity is something very complex and complicated. 
As a french canadian, I feel my culture is totally opposite to the rest of Canada. Many times, we don't share the same value, we don't think the same way. Clearly we don't come from the same place. It's hard to explain. We're just different. They say about us, canadians, that we are "two solitudes". That's why so many french canadians still wish to be separated from Canada. They would like to take their own decisions, take their own risk and manage their country the best way they can. 
It is not exactly the definition of "oppression".

Doesn't mean I'm for the independance of Quebec, though. I still think there's other solutions to live happier in Canada. 

 

I'd be curious to hear people from Belgium about that - they pretty live the same thing. 

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Just now, runa said:

Thanks for the input, @promise to try, very interesting.



Doesn't mean I'm for the independance of Quebec, though. I still think there's other solutions to live happier in Canada. 

 

 

by the way, the spanish tvs ar all the time mentioning how Quebec became poorer and a lot of businesses left them for good once the referendum was mentioned: is that true?

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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41683390

European Council President Donald Tusk has explicitly ruled out any EU action over Catalonia, despite the "concerning" situation.

"There is no room, no space for any kind of mediation or international initiative or action," he said.

He was speaking at a joint news conference with EU Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker.

Catalans voted to secede in a 1 October referendum, which was outlawed by Spain and has prompted mass demonstrations.

Mr Tusk's remarks came hours after Spain said it was beginning the process of imposing direct rule on the autonomous region.

 

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Imposing that rule seems SO WRONG!  Even for the Conservative. They are waiting for some miracle to happen for not doing it. But I guess it's the only answer,  as Puigdemont doesn't move and only asks vaguely for "dialogue"  but doesn't specify with whom and about what.  Anyway it is wrong and surely Catalonia will try to use it to spread the fake illusion of oppression.  

Yesterday the Council of the EU met and France and Germany support the decision.  So it is happening.  I guess there will be demonstrations and such.  I wonder what comes next?  

What's the plan of Catalonia?  Now it all seems a theater not to lose credibility in the eyes of the voters.  Because elections are the only solution.  But Puigdemont party knows they will lose big time. But with forced elections maybe they get much more votes.  

It's so boring.. It's like watching Gaga's career. Full of lies and absurdities. 

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4 hours ago, karbatal said:

It's like watching Gaga's career. 

Great analogy. At first you are puzzled and shocked and disgusted but after a while you are like: why is this still going on, shouldn't it have been over already???

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8 hours ago, karbatal said:

Imposing that rule seems SO WRONG!  Even for the Conservative. They are waiting for some miracle to happen for not doing it. But I guess it's the only answer,  as Puigdemont doesn't move and only asks vaguely for "dialogue"  but doesn't specify with whom and about what.  Anyway it is wrong and surely Catalonia will try to use it to spread the fake illusion of oppression.  

Yesterday the Council of the EU met and France and Germany support the decision.  So it is happening.  I guess there will be demonstrations and such.  I wonder what comes next?  

What's the plan of Catalonia?  Now it all seems a theater not to lose credibility in the eyes of the voters.  Because elections are the only solution.  But Puigdemont party knows they will lose big time. But with forced elections maybe they get much more votes.  

It's so boring.. It's like watching Gaga's career. Full of lies and absurdities. 

On one hand you say it's wrong that the state imposes direct rule over an autonomous region, then you say Catalonia would use that to spread fake news about the illusion of oppression. If direct rule happens, then that WILL be oppression - fact.

And Puigdemont did the RIGHT thing by asking for talks and dialogue with Madrid. Why aren't you commenting on the fact that this request has been ignored rather than scornfully dismissing it with "with whom and about what"? And I imagine it would be about coming to some agreement over giving more autonomy to the region, devolving more powers - you know, those powers stripped and reversed from it by the constitutional court in 2010? OR a new and binding independence referendum to decide the issue.

In fact, the ones spreading fake news are those in this thread repeating the lines about "nations should only be independent IF they are 'oppressed' " or that every type of nationalism is bad -  equating right-wing nazi-esque nationalism with democratic civic left-wing nationalism, which are the lines that awful article posted a few days ago parroted.

The EU has shown itself as the corrupt self-serving institution that most already suspected it was, but never to such an extent as we've seen with this issue. AS IF it's mouthpieces France and Germany would say any different.

That the echo chamber in this thread just keep on repeating the kind of state-sanctioned propaganda coming straight out of the Francoist Madrid govt. offices is disheartening to say the least (Promise to Try excepted). Now it's being treated as a joke..."oh isn't this over already". Vile. We'll see how "over" it is when/if Spain sends in the thugs (again) to attempt to take over the governance of Catalonia by force and/or setting up a series of farcical elections in the region.

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9 minutes ago, Kim said:

On one hand you say it's wrong that the state imposes direct rule over an autonomous region, then you say Catalonia would use that to spread fake news about the illusion of oppression. If direct rule happens, then that WILL be oppression - fact.

And Puigdemont did the RIGHT thing by asking for talks and dialogue with Madrid. Why aren't you commenting on the fact that this request has been ignored rather than scornfully dismissing it with "with whom and about what"? And I imagine it would be about coming to some agreement over giving more autonomy to the region, devolving more powers - you know, those powers stripped and reversed from it by the constitutional court in 2010? OR a new and binding independence referendum to decide the issue.

In fact, the ones spreading fake news are those in this thread repeating the lines about "nations should only be independent IF they are 'oppressed' " or that every type on nationalism is bad -  equating right-wing nazi-esque nationalism with democratic civic left-wing nationalism, which are the lines that awful article posted a few days ago parroted.

The EU has shown itself as the corrupt self-serving institution that most already suspected it was, but never to such an extent as we've seen with this issue. AS IF it's mouthpieces France and Germany would say any different.

That the echo chamber in this thread just keep on repeating the kind of state-sanctioned propaganda coming straight out of the Francoist Madrid govt. offices is disheartening to say the least (Promise to Try excepted). Now it's being treated as a joke..."oh isn't this over already". Vile. We'll see how "over" it is when/if Spain sends in the thugs (again) to attempt to take over the governance of Catalonia by force and/or setting up a series of farcical elections in the region.

 

I could answer to some questions you ask. What for? If you think that telling people who are richer than the rest that they cannot change the Constitution whenever they like to stop helping less developed regions is being right-winged and nazi... Then you are the one with the problem. 

I was coming home yesterday and saw some flyer about a debate on Syria. And I thought "oh God, we have forgotten Syria so soon". It is not only Syria, it is so many things. This past week, to breath a bit, I am listening to the German radio when I walk back home and there was this increasing problem again in Iraq due to ISIS. So many things are kept unmentioned in Spain during this marathon of greed and absurdity.  I am going to open up my eyes again. 

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8 hours ago, elijah said:

Great analogy. At first you are puzzled and shocked and disgusted but after a while you are like: why is this still going on, shouldn't it have been over already???

Let's focus on better issues in the world. Important ones. Enough with the first-first-first world problems coming from spoiled Catalonia. 

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8 minutes ago, karbatal said:

 

I could answer to some questions you ask. What for? If you think that telling people who are richer than the rest that they cannot change the Constitution whenever they like to stop helping less developed regions is being right-winged and nazi... Then you are the one with the problem. 

Well in that case, practice what you just preached a few days ago and take your emotions and your preconceived ideas out of the equation and just look at it from a purely democratic standpoint. 

Anyway, Craig Murray, political blogger and former UK ambassador (and someone whose views tend to mirror mine) -

Spain is Operating Way Beyond Democratic Legitimacy

In imprisoning Catalan leaders for peaceful campaigning for Independence, and in choosing both in rhetoric and in court to treat support for Independence as “sedition”, the Spanish government is acting way beyond the limits of a democratic society. It is ignoring the basic human rights of freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. It is also undertaking massive blocking of communication and censorship of the internet in a manner never seen before in a “Western” state.

To move now to suspend the democratically elected Catalan administration, which is explicitly offering dialogue as an alternative to UDI, is to escalate the crisis in an unreasonable fashion, in the true meaning of the word unreasonable. All of this is truly dreadful, without even mentioning the violence inflicted on voters taking part in the peaceful Independence referendum.

As regular readers know, the EU reaction to the peaceful movement for Catalan independence has caused me to rethink my entire position on that institution. The failure to condemn the violence and human rights abuse has been bad enough, but the EU has gone still further and offered unqualified support to Spain, with the Commission specifically declaring Spain has a right to use violence, and Juncker saying straight out that the EU opposes Catalan Independence.

What has become more clear to me is that the modern state is simply an engine to enable the elite to control and direct its economic resources to their own benefit, those economic resources including the people. Loss of resources to the ruling elite is therefore a catastrophe. A state is not a collaborative construct voluntarily formed for mutual convenience and protection by its people. If it were, then it would be a matter of indifference to the ruling elite which particular state units people choose to form, and how these morph and form.

The idea, endorsed by the EU, that a state is an economic construct of control, in which it is legitimate to constrain entire peoples by force against their will, is surely abhorrent. The EU has become simply a cartel of power, a club to promote the sectional interest of the controlling elites of European states.

Catalonia will have a few days to decide how to react to Spanish imposition of direct rule, as that has to go through legislative bodies in Madrid. Catalonia has very little capacity militarily to defend itself against Spain. But it is difficult to see how it can be serious about Independence if it makes no effort to that purpose. Some effort at physical, if non-lethal, resistance to Spanish takeover must surely be under discussion.

More importantly, however brief the lifespan of Independent Catalonia at this stage, it must during its existence delegitimise Spanish – by which I mean pre-Independence – institutions and specifically the courts. Within Catalonia, all officers of State, and particularly judges, prosecutors and law enforcement officers, must be suspended immediately from all duties. They should then be instantly administered an oath of loyalty to the Catalan state and a specific abjuring of loyalty to the Spanish state. Those who do not take the oath would remain suspended, and after a week become dismissed.

The alternative will be an undermining of the legitimacy of the Catalan state by its own courts, and the many corrupt pro-Madrid judges and prosecutors they contain. This will be used to counteract the Independence narrative internationally and domestically.

Spain and the EU are hiding behind “the rule of law”. The violence of the Guardia Civil was validated as enforcing the ruling of Francoist judges. The censorship of the internet, the imprisonment of dissidents, all is in accordance with the “rule of law” in Spain.

I dealt with imprisonment of political prisoners all round the world when I was in the FCO. Very few of them were extra-judicially detained. Uzbekistan’s 8,000 political prisoners have almost all been tried and condemned under Uzbek law. Alexander Solzhenitsyn, Ken Saro Wiwa, Nelson Mandela, Gandhi, all were imprisoned by judges. The “rule of law”, where it ignores human rights, is not enough. That is the line the EU, to its great shame, has crossed.

As a footnote, I am researching my biography of George Murray. In 1710, following the death of George’s eldest brother John with the British army at the Battle of Malplaquet, his next eldest brother William was summoned home from India. The first available vessel was bound for Barcelona. William spent some time there waiting for a ship in the middle of a war. The interesting point is that the family letters refer repeatedly to William being in Catalonia and events in Catalonia. The word Spain does not appear in the correspondence at all.

I mention this purely as illustrative – and one of many thousands of examples that might be given – that the Catalans are a people and have been acknowledged as such in Europe for centuries. The right of self-determination in Article 2 of the UN Charter is given not to geographic regions but exclusively to “Peoples”. The Catalans, like the Scots, undoubtedly qualify as a “People”, something the EU has still failed to address.

 

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ao now, we are fucked. The spanish government has decided to use article 155: if a regional government doesn´t behave, the rights to govern themselves go back to the spanish government.

I understand karbatal being bored about this, for you, outside spain, it´s a new thing, for us it´s been in hour lifes all the time. Yes, nobody talks about siria, or somalia, or...

Before today I thought there was a small possibikity to solve this talking. Now. no.And the thing is that the spanish govenment has mad today a lot of independentist people with their action. IN their next elections, apparently next january, I´m sure pro independence parties are going to win. and? then what? we will have a majority of voters in favour of the referedendum, and the govermenmet rulling the country, catalonia I mean, only with 8% of their votes?

this has been a huge mistake by rajoy,I know that a lot of hjis people want´s this, but they are not messuring what their action is going to create as a response.

and of course, onece it has been used, the 155, the next one is...article 8, the army?

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