Priest and 4-6 hostages taken in Northern France

[spazz]

I read the priest has donated to build a mosque in france back in early 2000

https://youtu.be/uXX23DgZgO8

[Guest Rachelle of London]

See what I mean?

What do you really want? Yes, this man was beheaded. What should we do then. Mess our hairs and scream? Despair? Shout out loud that we are at war?

When people try a more distant approach and try to understand cause and effect and to glimpse what may happen in the months to come is not because they don't care. And if people don't agree with those ideas given, they can give OTHER point of views or ideas. Precisely because this is not the MDNA thread.

What most people really want is for all this to stop. It needs to stop. These members of IS are not innocent. They are not down on their luck because they're migrants or descendants of migrants. They're murderinf terrorists. Believe me if I went around shooting, blowing up, hacking people to death. I would get zero sympathy. No matter how hard I've had it.

Many different posters have given many different opinions and views. I'm so confused. Literally every comment is a different point of view.

And who said we should declare war? How can you declare war on a fundamentalist mindset?

It's sad that there's more sympathy for these disgusting vile terrorists than there is for the poor victims.

[karbatal]

I can't imagine anybody being more sympathetic with the killers than with the poor priest, unless they are sick and crazy themselves.

And we all want this madness to stop. Besides, as news developed we know now that this killing is different to the Nice or Munich ones. This time they really had a direct connection with IS so the analysis would be different.

I guess I was misunderstood here because as a journalist I'm used to leave the feelings aside and go for the cold facts. and maybe this wasn't the place to write like this. Journalism is the first step to what later will become History. And in History it's the facts what are analysed (with much more information). when this era is taught in schools in the future they will analyse all aspects of the situation.

To sum up: sorry if I wrote in a too cold way. Kiss.

[Jazzy Jan]

I think people try too hard to work out why people are terrorists and try to sympathise with them. I have zero sympathy for anyone who beheads someone, blows up buildings, bombs innocent people in crowds and has no empathy or regard for human life. While people keep trying to make excuses for them and pussy footing around, they are growing in numbers everyday. They are also spoiling things for decent, law abiding immigrants who come to countries for a better life and contribute greatly. There has to be zero tolerance and zero understanding for terrorists from everyone. They have no respect for human life and are simply evil and barbaric. People who cruelly murder others can rot in Hell for all I care.

[karbatal]

It's not to excuse them. It's to understand why or how so you can fight better against the situation and avoid further tragedies. It has nothing to do with being sympathetic to them or justify their actions.

You can lock these killers up, beat them, kill them... But that won't stop more attacks to come.

[promise to try]

I think people try too hard to work out why people are terrorists and try to sympathise with them. I have zero sympathy for anyone who beheads someone, blows up buildings, bombs innocent people in crowds and has no empathy or regard for human life. While people keep trying to make excuses for them and pussy footing around, they are growing in numbers everyday. They are also spoiling things for decent, law abiding immigrants who come to countries for a better life and contribute greatly. There has to be zero tolerance and zero understanding for terrorists from everyone. They have no respect for human life and are simply evil and barbaric. People who cruelly murder others can rot in Hell for all I care.

Im sure that nobody in here sympathyses with them,I haven't read 80% of the posts,but Im sure about it.the thing is, in my opinion,we have to try to understand how come part of the islam,a lot of muslim people have become so crazy,why does this spread so fast,if there is any country that is helping this movement economically-politically,if there is something "positive" for the people in isis to join them...everything,because only that way we will be able to stop it.

[Kurt420]

It's not to excuse them. It's to understand why or how so you can fight better against the situation and avoid further tragedies. It has nothing to do with being sympathetic to them or justify their actions.

You can lock these killers up, beat them, kill them... But that won't stop more attacks to come.

This right here.

It's revealing that the mere suggestion of "trying to understand" these people made you some sort of sympathizer. That kind of reaction justifies exactly what you're saying. If more people "tried to understand" maybe these killers wouldn't be nurtured in the first place. I think that mentality can be applied to any of the worlds major problems. It never will though sadly. People are more interested in reacting and pointing fingers than understanding and truly solving the problem at it's core.

[promise to try]

I can't imagine anybody being more sympathetic with the killers than with the poor priest, unless they are sick and crazy themselves.

And we all want this madness to stop. Besides, as news developed we know now that this killing is different to the Nice or Munich ones. This time they really had a direct connection with IS so the analysis would be different.

.

I get what you say,but the fact that the killings in nice were more a personal idea doesn't make it less isis.that's one of the scariest thing of it all,any ultra radical muslim can be a part of isis even if he-she never had any connection with them.as I used to say to say to some friends in the 90s talking about ETA, we can create a "comando" if we want to,that's why is so difficult to control

[promise to try]

This right here.

It's revealing that the mere suggestion of "trying to understand" these people made you some sort of sympathizer. That kind of reaction justifies exactly what you're saying. If more people "tried to understand" maybe these killers wouldn't be nurtured in the first place. I think that mentality can be applied to any of the worlds major problems. It never will though sadly. People are more interested in reacting and pointing fingers than understanding and truly solving the problem at it's core.

we have had a terrorist problem in spain fo decades.and it has finished when people (politicians...)have tried to understane it.justify it?no,understand where is the problem to solve it.

[elijah]

Exactly. And you can't ban radical ideas learned in the Internet. I agree that some Muslim leaders or mosques that spread hate should be controlled or even imprisoned but other solutions are like trying to capture the ocean with your hands, sorry. Or do you want to forbid the Internet?

Why did that radical branch of Islam spread in the first place?

It would be the right step to punish and expell the radical islamic preachers. I mean I saw a TV report a month ago about a Belgian islamic organization that officially fights to instill Sharia law as the oficial law of Belgium. You dont think those should be banned? They obviouslly dont respect the rule of law. Do u think you can go freely to Saudi Arabia or even Dubai and establish an organization that aims to discard of Sharia law and be left in peace?

Why did it spread in the first place? Cause wahabism, salafism etc. those highly conservative variations of islam are not only incouraged, they are also the main ones in Saudi Arabia, which host the holy cities for all muslims. Saudi Arabia are backed by the USA and others and they sponsor opening of mosques throughout Europe where they send preachers from where? Saudi Arabia. No one in Europe bothers with what is preached there. Those conservative movements believe the Quran should be stricly followed and that includes the idea of jihad (and not the conception of spiritual struggle). So in short its like if the Vatican was promoting a violent christianity against all other relgions and encouraging killing ppl from other faith. Thus of course its much more easier to get radicalized if u are muslim (the state that holds the Holy Lands preaches radical islam).

The other reason is the segregation of course. Lots of muslims do not want to integrate in the host country. They want the benefits, but they dont associate enough with the country they have come in. Thus its easier for the youngsters there to get radicalized cause they have always been brought up in a totally different from the sorrounding culture, since their parents have isolated themselves. They grew to hate the state they live in.

There are other reasons, but it would be stupid to think that islam has nothing to do with this radicalizations. You have alot of immigrants in Spain - including alot of Bulgarians, Romanians etc. Probably there are ppl from them that are unsatisfied from life like the young muslim terorists yet u dont see them going around killing ppl cause in christianity killing is the greatest sin, suicide is the greatest sin. In certain types of islam killing and suicide could be excused and even encouraged... We have to be blind to not see that.

[promise to try]

The fact that some crazy gunman plans an attack and chooses Hollande's hometown doesnt' mean that ISIS has a plan in France.

of course isis has a plan in france,to spread terror there,make people feel they are not safe anywhere,"socializacion del conflicto" it's call it in spanish.to make the french state feel that they are not in control of france's safety anymore.ane thank god the schools are closed now,because if they really want to hurt us,and they want to,a school...it's scarey only to think about it

[spazz]

You sum it perfectly elijah

You can lock these killers up, beat them, kill them... But that won't stop more attacks to come.

And karby these ppl should be punished severely and jailed so none of other criminals urge to do something in the future.

[Guest Rachelle of London]

This right here.

It's revealing that the mere suggestion of "trying to understand" these people made you some sort of sympathizer. That kind of reaction justifies exactly what you're saying. If more people "tried to understand" maybe these killers wouldn't be nurtured in the first place. I think that mentality can be applied to any of the worlds major problems. It never will though sadly. People are more interested in reacting and pointing fingers than understanding and truly solving the problem at it's core.

So how exactly can we solve it at the core? Considering us Europeans are to blame for these people hacking pregnant women to death in the streets of Germany or beheading priests in a church, what can we do to make this stop?

It's not pointing fingers when they belong to a terrorist organisation. Why is everyone so scared to call these people out? What makes them so special where no one has the right to condemn what they do?

I really don't get how I can "try and understand" these murderers.

[promise to try]

It would be the right step to punish and expell the radical islamic preachers. I mean I saw a TV report a month ago about a Belgian islamic organization that officially fights to instill Sharia law as the oficial law of Belgium. You dont think those should be banned? They obviouslly dont respect the rule of law. Do u think you can go freely to Saudi Arabia or even Dubai and establish an organization that aims to discard of Sharia law and be left in peace?

Why did it spread in the first place? Cause wahabism, salafism etc. those highly conservative variations of islam are not only incouraged, they are also the main ones in Saudi Arabia, which host the holy cities for all muslims. Saudi Arabia are backed by the USA and others and they sponsor opening of mosques throughout Europe where they send preachers from where? Saudi Arabia. No one in Europe bothers with what is preached there. Those conservative movements believe the Quran should be stricly followed and that includes the idea of jihad (and not the conception of spiritual struggle). So in short its like if the Vatican was promoting a violent christianity against all other relgions and encouraging killing ppl from other faith. Thus of course its much more easier to get radicalized if u are muslim (the state that holds the Holy Lands preaches radical islam).

The other reason is the segregation of course. Lots of muslims do not want to integrate in the host country. They want the benefits, but they dont associate enough with the country they have come in. Thus its easier for the youngsters there to get radicalized cause they have always been brought up in a totally different from the sorrounding culture, since their parents have isolated themselves. They grew to hate the state they live in.

There are other reasons, but it would be stupid to think that islam has nothing to do with this radicalizations. You have alot of immigrants in Spain - including alot of Bulgarians, Romanians etc. Probably there are ppl from them that are unsatisfied from life like the young muslim terorists yet u dont see them going around killing ppl cause in christianity killing is the greatest sin, suicide is the greatest sin. In certain types of islam killing and suicide could be excused and even encouraged... We have to be blind to not see that.

all the religions should be under the law,and if somebody doesn't respect it,judge,and jail.

[promise to try]

You sum it perfectly elijah

And karby these ppl should be punished severely and jailed so none of other criminals urge to do something in the future.

I haven't read what karbatal has said,not all of it,but Im sure he is not saying that these people shouldn't be punished.

[Guest Rachelle of London]

I think people try too hard to work out why people are terrorists and try to sympathise with them. I have zero sympathy for anyone who beheads someone, blows up buildings, bombs innocent people in crowds and has no empathy or regard for human life. While people keep trying to make excuses for them and pussy footing around, they are growing in numbers everyday. They are also spoiling things for decent, law abiding immigrants who come to countries for a better life and contribute greatly. There has to be zero tolerance and zero understanding for terrorists from everyone. They have no respect for human life and are simply evil and barbaric. People who cruelly murder others can rot in Hell for all I care.

[elijah]

I'm not looking though pink glasses but maybe you are looking reality through the eyes from a country that never had immigrants.

You probably mean recent migrants. But we have had migrants 100 years ago, Armenians (around the genocide) and they have always been integrated well into the society.

As you know we have a long history with islam (like Spain though when you were liberated from them, we were subdued by them) and we have over 500 000 Bulgarian Turks which is 5-6 percent of the whole population. We also have Bulgarian muslims (at least 200 000). So 10 percent muslims at least. Thank god they are not radicalized, but there are now some proceddings connected with radical islam and investigations of ppl that have preached radical islam in some newly build mosques, sponsored by who.... you ll never guess. So believe me we have the problem (or the potential problem).

[promise to try]

So how exactly can we solve it at the core? Considering us Europeans are to blame for these people hacking pregnant women to death in the streets of Germany or beheading priests in a church, what can we do to make this stop?

It's not pointing fingers when they belong to a terrorist organisation. Why is everyone so scared to call these people out? What makes them so special where no one has the right to condemn what they do?

I really don't get how I can "try and understand" these murderers.

if I rape a woman,I hsve to go to jail.I don't care if my excuses were religious or any others to do that.jail.but,by only doing that Im afraid the problem won't be solved

[elijah]

all the religions should be under the law,and if somebody doesn't respect it,judge,and jail.

I agree. However what complicates things is that the state that holds the holy cities of islam preaches radical islam.

[promise to try]

I agree. However what complicates things is that the state that holds the holy cities of islam preaches radical islam.

well,let's start in europe and spread it little by little,not bombing or creating dictatorships...

[Kurt420]

So how exactly can we solve it at the core? Considering us Europeans are to blame for these people hacking pregnant women to death in the streets of Germany or beheading priests in a church, what can we do to make this stop?

It's not pointing fingers when they belong to a terrorist organisation. Why is everyone so scared to call these people out? What makes them so special where no one has the right to condemn what they do?

I really don't get how I can "try and understand" these murderers.

They should be called out and they should be punished! But why are these people so fucked up? Why are so many willing to be brainwashed into this? Why do they feel the need to do this? Why this sudden spike in extreme violence? When I say "try to understand" I mean it in the broadest sense down to the most specific sense. Why do we live in a world where cops feel like they're "just doing their job" when they kill unarmed civilians? If everyone is so disgusted by these things and want them to stop, why keep trying to put a Band-Aid on cancer? That's what we've done over and over and over and over again and clearly it doesn't work. How can you stop the cancer if you don't know it's source?

[Jazzy Jan]

This right here.

It's revealing that the mere suggestion of "trying to understand" these people made you some sort of sympathizer. That kind of reaction justifies exactly what you're saying. If more people "tried to understand" maybe these killers wouldn't be nurtured in the first place. I think that mentality can be applied to any of the worlds major problems. It never will though sadly. People are more interested in reacting and pointing fingers than understanding and truly solving the problem at it's core.

Kurt, I do understand what you are saying and as always admire your thoughtful words and decency. However, I simply don't know what we can do anymore to understand terrorists who become radicalised. I have seen so many reports about radicalised youth in Australia and there is nothing to show how they become that way. People say society is to blame for them being disenfranchised youth but they have led 'normal" lives previously going to school, interacting with friends and enjoying life. Most of the time, their friends are all shocked to the core at how they suddenly changed. I just feel that there is no rhyme or reason to how they have become so brainwashed and therefore I can't understand them. When you see them talking about wanting to behead as many non-believers as possible, it chills me to the bone. Especially when so many others of the same faith are appalled and would never even contemplate committing such revolting crimes. Society just can't sit back anymore and cop this.

[Jazzy Jan]

They should be called out and they should be punished! But why are these people so fucked up? Why are so many willing to be brainwashed into this? Why do they feel the need to do this? Why this sudden spike in extreme violence? When I say "try to understand" I mean it in the broadest sense down to the most specific sense. Why do we live in a world where cops feel like they're "just doing their job" when they kill unarmed civilians? If everyone is so disgusted by these things and want them to stop, why keep trying to put a Band-Aid on cancer? That's what we've done over and over and over and over again and clearly it doesn't work. How can you stop the cancer if you don't know it's source?

I feel also that this is a different situation. I can fully understand that people are disgusted with police killing unarmed citizens as I find it appalling and think the police should be charged with murder. That should never happen and it is disgusting. Home grown terrorists are different because they just want to kill anyone and "non-believers"

[Jazzy Jan]

Re my last post, I hope I was clear. I was meaning that I can understand that people feel so angry with police that have killed unarmed people. It is like a cancer as you say that should never be tolerated.

[karbatal]

It would be the right step to punish and expell the radical islamic preachers. I mean I saw a TV report a month ago about a Belgian islamic organization that officially fights to instill Sharia law as the oficial law of Belgium. You dont think those should be banned? They obviouslly dont respect the rule of law. Do u think you can go freely to Saudi Arabia or even Dubai and establish an organization that aims to discard of Sharia law and be left in peace?

Why did it spread in the first place? Cause wahabism, salafism etc. those highly conservative variations of islam are not only incouraged, they are also the main ones in Saudi Arabia, which host the holy cities for all muslims. Saudi Arabia are backed by the USA and others and they sponsor opening of mosques throughout Europe where they send preachers from where? Saudi Arabia. No one in Europe bothers with what is preached there. Those conservative movements believe the Quran should be stricly followed and that includes the idea of jihad (and not the conception of spiritual struggle). So in short its like if the Vatican was promoting a violent christianity against all other relgions and encouraging killing ppl from other faith. Thus of course its much more easier to get radicalized if u are muslim (the state that holds the Holy Lands preaches radical islam).

The other reason is the segregation of course. Lots of muslims do not want to integrate in the host country. They want the benefits, but they dont associate enough with the country they have come in. Thus its easier for the youngsters there to get radicalized cause they have always been brought up in a totally different from the sorrounding culture, since their parents have isolated themselves. They grew to hate the state they live in.

There are other reasons, but it would be stupid to think that islam has nothing to do with this radicalizations. You have alot of immigrants in Spain - including alot of Bulgarians, Romanians etc. Probably there are ppl from them that are unsatisfied from life like the young muslim terorists yet u dont see them going around killing ppl cause in christianity killing is the greatest sin, suicide is the greatest sin. In certain types of islam killing and suicide could be excused and even encouraged... We have to be blind to not see that.

You are 100% right, and we in Spain had the worst terrorist attack in European history, with more than 200 deaths, which luckily weren't much more because the timing went wrong. And you are right, religions like Islam are more prone to atract radicalism.

I agree with everything you say. But i don't agree with stopping immigration or blaming Islam as a religion for it. Of course, if we wouldn't have had immigrantion, that wouldn't have happened. But as I say 2 million muslims live now in Spain and we are lucky we have them, because they create a better society, a healthier one and those kids they are having will pay my retirement pension, for example (just an example).

I'm sorry. If radical christians started killin people in Africa (for example) i wouldn't like my religion to be banned and me being pointed at because of some fanatics who live thousands of kilometeres for me.

But i agree with what you say and of course the first step is to prosecute those iman and religious leaders who are spreading hate and brainwashing young people.

[karbatal]

So how exactly can we solve it at the core? Considering us Europeans are to blame for these people hacking pregnant women to death in the streets of Germany or beheading priests in a church, what can we do to make this stop?

It's not pointing fingers when they belong to a terrorist organisation. Why is everyone so scared to call these people out? What makes them so special where no one has the right to condemn what they do?

I really don't get how I can "try and understand" these murderers.

I don't think "Europe is to blame". Of course the blame is in the killers and the terrorist organization. But there are things in our society that somehow aren't working as they should.

1. We have backed many times or even been responsible of the big mess of those countries. The spreading of radical muslims is an effect of the horrible situation they are living there. And they were not responsible in the first place, it was NATO politics together with Russia.

2. It's very difficult to absorb immigration. In France, somehow they couldn't do it right. Maybe it's impossible to do it right, i don't know. But there are very big ghettos in parts of the country with lots of people being born in France but hating France and its culture. When that happens with many, many, many, it would be good to try to know what has happened these past 25 years and why people being born in France have developed that problem. Maybe you can't solve it, but it's good to study the causes.

3. We all blame ISIS. What I, for example, try to say is that simply blaming ISIS doesn't solve anything. It would if somebody from ISIS travelled from Iraq to France to attack. But terrorists, being most of them French or German citizens, born in France and German, make the issue far more complex, because they weren't trained by ISIS, they were regular people radicalized in their own country.

[karbatal]

They should be called out and they should be punished! But why are these people so fucked up? Why are so many willing to be brainwashed into this? Why do they feel the need to do this? Why this sudden spike in extreme violence? When I say "try to understand" I mean it in the broadest sense down to the most specific sense. Why do we live in a world where cops feel like they're "just doing their job" when they kill unarmed civilians? If everyone is so disgusted by these things and want them to stop, why keep trying to put a Band-Aid on cancer? That's what we've done over and over and over and over again and clearly it doesn't work. How can you stop the cancer if you don't know it's source?

That's exactly what i think.

[Guest Rachelle of London]

One of the hostage takers was known to authorities and was under surveillance.

What we know of Adel Kermiche?

• First tried to leave for Syria in March 2015. His family reported him missing and he was arrested in Germany, using his brother's identity card
• Returned to France, charged and placed under judicial supervision
• Tried again to head to Syria in May 2015, reaching Turkey before being arrested again and returned to France
• Remained in custody until March 2016 when he was released on condition he wear an electronic surveillance tag and remain at his home in Saint-Etienne-du-Rouvray except for weekday hours between 08:00 and 12:30
• http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36900233

Seems France did their best to try and stop him from being radicalised.

[karbatal]

I haven't read what karbatal has said,not all of it,but Im sure he is not saying that these people shouldn't be punished.

Oh, thanks babe, hahahaha. What shocked me about this thread is that people would think that any poster in Madonnanation would support or excuse those killers!

[karbatal]

One of the hostage takers was known to authorities and was under surveillance.

What we know of Adel Kermiche?

• First tried to leave for Syria in March 2015. His family reported him missing and he was arrested in Germany, using his brother's identity card
• Returned to France, charged and placed under judicial supervision
• Tried again to head to Syria in May 2015, reaching Turkey before being arrested again and returned to France
• Remained in custody until March 2016 when he was released on condition he wear an electronic surveillance tag and remain at his home in Saint-Etienne-du-Rouvray except for weekday hours between 08:00 and 12:30
• http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36900233

Seems France did their best to try and stop him from being radicalised.

I wonder what can we do when this happen. I mean, you can't put in jail somebody because you think he may do something wrong. But clearly many of these people are about to snap and do some barbaric act.

This really is scary, because i don't want a Guantanamo in Europe, a jail where people who haven't done anything but are suspect to do it are injailed. It's a Huxley nightmare!