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How do other residents of EU countries feel about potentially leaving the EU?

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Of course everyone deserves and is entitled to a vote, just as they deserve to have politicians and a media to provide facts/data to allow them to come to an informed decision.

Should this issue have been put to a referendum though? Absolutely not. As has been said over and over, it was an issue of internal party politics that spilled over into a huge gamble that didn't pay off.

MeakMaker- idealism is great and all, but you realistically need to play within the parameters of the 'game' first and foremost.

The publuc was pushing for it so why not? Being a lefty wouldn't you say that it's a Politicians duty to heed the cry of the people? Do you not believe in democracy? Honestly I don't get the whole 'It's Cameron's fault' logic. What is his fault? The right to a democratic vote on social, economic and political issues?

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As I pointed out all this information is based on empirical research and statistics. No one judged anyone. It's not evil magic. And spare me your conspiracy theories. I also do not appreciate questioning if I have a liberal mind or not. I don't care what IQ you have or where you come from. It doesn't matter to me. It appears to me like a silly attempt to come across as superior.

I don't feel superior to anybody. I'm not the one who said that people's intelligence should dictate their right to vote. I was assumedly born with a high IQ and I certainly don't think that entitles me to the right to vote anymore than anybody else. I think awareness should be encouraged but I don't think controlling people's right to vote based on intelligence is all that far from what Hitler did to the Jewish population. I don't mean to be condescending but all research is empirical because we can't experience the world in any other way. Unfortunately.

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Churchill said "Many forms of government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe.
No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is
the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried from time to time."

meaning democracy is not perfect but it's still the best alternative we have.

You can't deny anyone's right to vote based on IQ or political stances. The word democracy comes from the greek word demos = people. Democracy = power of the people.

Of course racism is an awful thing but you can't deny a racist person the right to vote. This person could tell you, you shouldn't be allowed to vote because you're not racist and don't understand anything, that you are the stupid one.

If we start sying who is allowed to vote and who isn't then why stop at racism ? This could open the doors to barring women, non white people, gays etc....from voting.

The only thing we can do and should be doing is making racist political organizations and parties illegal. But since they are clever they know what they can say and can't to not be prosecuted.

Not allowing racists to vote is also saying that leftists are more intelligent. I can tell you that's not the case. I left many organizations from the left and far left because now too many have crossed the line from disagreeing with Israel racist and fascist governement ( not only they are against palestinians but also against non white jews. They want Gaza to put arab jews and black jews there, separated from white jews. They even sterilized ethiopian women who were jews and wanted to migrate in Israel so that's why i'm saying the israeli governement is racist and fascist) to being overtly antisemitic. I joined these organizations to fight islamophobia, homophobia etc....and i found myself with people being unashamed to be overtly antisemitic (and some homophobes too).

We are living in sad times. WWII was 80 years ago, people forgot or don't try to know.

What we should do too is not barring people we think are not intelligent enough to vote (who are we to decide ????) but forcing people who don't vote (but complain after) to vote. Every poll and election should have at least an 80 % turnout or the poll/election should be cancelled. Some countries make it mandatory to vote. Even though i think it goes against everyone's freedom, i'm starting to think that it's not so bad when there's a crucial poll/election like this one.

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Churchill said "Many forms of government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe.

No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is

the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried from time to time."

meaning democracy is not perfect but it's still the best alternative we have.

You can't deny anyone's right to vote based on IQ or political stances. The word democracy comes from the greek word demos = people. Democracy = power of the people.

Of course racism is an awful thing but you can't deny a racist person the right to vote. This person could tell you, you shouldn't be allowed to vote because you're not racist and don't understand anything, that you are the stupid one.

If we start sying who is allowed to vote and who isn't then why stop at racism ? This could open the doors to barring women, non white people, gays etc....from voting.

The only thing we can do and should be doing is making racist political organizations and parties illegal. But since they are clever they know what they can say and can't to not be prosecuted.

Not allowing racists to vote is also saying that leftists are more intelligent. I can tell you that's not the case. I left many organizations from the left and far left because now too many have crossed the line from disagreeing with Israel racist and fascist governement ( not only they are against palestinians but also against non white jews. They want Gaza to put arab jews and black jews there, separated from white jews. They even sterilized ethiopian women who were jews and wanted to migrate in Israel so that's why i'm saying the israeli governement is racist and fascist) to being overtly antisemitic. I joined these organizations to fight islamophobia, homophobia etc....and i found myself with people being unashamed to be overtly antisemitic (and some homophobes too).

We are living in sad times. WWII was 80 years ago, people forgot or don't try to know.

What we should do too is not barring people we think are not intelligent enough to vote (who are we to decide ????) but forcing people who don't vote (but complain after) to vote. Every poll and election should have at least an 80 % turnout or the poll/election should be cancelled. Some countries make it mandatory to vote. Even though i think it goes against everyone's freedom, i'm starting to think that it's not so bad when there's a crucial poll/election like this one.

Let's make babies. :clap: A lot of people don't understand the origination of things like demicracy and anarchy.

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The publuc was pushing for it so why not? Being a lefty wouldn't you say that it's a Politicians duty to heed the cry of the people? Do you not believe in democracy? Honestly I don't get the whole 'It's Cameron's fault' logic. What is his fault? The right to a democratic vote on social, economic and political issues?

The public was not pushing for it. Stop re-writing history. Cameron stupidly placed it into his manifesto to quell the right-wing murmurings within his own party never thinking for a second that those same people would mount the campaign they did.

And "leftie"? Nope. I guess that makes you a right wing bigot though?

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Martin Luther King Jr. was a genius and one of the few people with that kind of reputation I truly admire. He was a visionary with a heart of steel. He wasn't an idealist.

Haha since when? People thought he was crazy. He had a very hard time in life because of people like your good self who simply didnt think things would change. That's the problem here.. people are afraid of a change. A true change of hearts; where it's not about you or me but it's about us. If you only live for yourself you'll never understand that. The world is in desperate need of love you have no idea... My ideas are fantasies but only because humanity wants them to be fantasy. But the world will change and then everybody will say oh yeah some people were talking about unity and peace in 2016 and it's now 3000 and the world is one and everybody is getting along. Unity will happen.. It's just taking some time and I get it when people don't believe in it.. It's the same with all the bad things that were happening in the past like slavery, homophobia, etc... Just in the 60's to think that two men would get married was deemed a fantasy and here we are in 2016 they can even adopt a kid! So never underestimate the ideas of a dreamer! And why on earth am i seen as an idealist or dreamer and not a visionary as Luther King? You think his ideas were accepted back then?!

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What we should do too is not barring people we think are not intelligent enough to vote (who are we to decide ????) but forcing people who don't vote (but complain after) to vote. Every poll and election should have at least an 80 % turnout or the poll/election should be cancelled. Some countries make it mandatory to vote. Even though i think it goes against everyone's freedom, i'm starting to think that it's not so bad when there's a crucial poll/election like this one.

This. This. This. I am sick and tired of those people. Not going to vote and later complaining about the "idiots" that run the country. I told someone to STFU once about this very issue. I understand that going to vote sometimes might be a hassle. It could be raining, it could be freezing cold, it could be hot as hell. But there is also something like an absentee ballot. I do that with every election. Therefore I don't need to get my ass up if I don't want to or the weather is horrible. It's very easy.

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Haha since when? People thought he was crazy. He had a very hard time in life because of people like your good self who simply didnt think things would change. That's the problem here.. people are afraid of a change. A true change of hearts; where it's not about you or me but it's about us. If you only live for yourself you'll never understand that. The world is in desperate need of love you have no idea... My ideas are fantasies but only because humanity wants them to be fantasy. But the world will change and then everybody will say oh yeah some people were talking about unity and peace in 2016 and it's now 3000 and the world is one and everybody is getting along. Unity will happen.. It's just taking some time and I get it when people don't believe in it.. It's the same with all the bad things that were happening in the past like slavery, homophobia, etc... Just in the 60's to think that two men would get married was deemed a fantasy and here we are in 2016 they can even adopt a kid! So never underestimate the ideas of a dreamer! And why on earth am i seen as an idealist or dreamer and not a visionary as Luther King? You think his ideas were accepted back then?!

You are so wrong. I would have been marching with him. I would have pushed him out of the way of that bullet. Just because I'm not as idealistic as you it doesn't mean I don't believ in better. Open your mind a bit more if you want to actually know what I'm about.

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The publuc was pushing for it so why not? Being a lefty wouldn't you say that it's a Politicians duty to heed the cry of the people? Do you not believe in democracy? Honestly I don't get the whole 'It's Cameron's fault' logic. What is his fault? The right to a democratic vote on social, economic and political issues?

Of course it is Cameron's fault. He did not have to have a referendum on this and did so to appease the factions in his party. Then he starts campaigning for a remain vote. Similar to our Pm Malcolm Turnbull who wants gay marriage but is going to have a public vote to please the religious factions of his party instead of just bringing it in.

You keep calling people lefties but I am pretty sure you agree with universal healthcare and welfare and benefits. You are more left wing than you care to admit.

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At the end of last year with journalist friends we unearthed Marion Le Pen old video where she was crying when a journalist asked her about the economy. She couldn't remember the lines they made her learn by heart and started crying then left.

Since i was the one who put the video back online i had access to the comments and private messages of her supporters. At first i was mocking them then i had two discussions via Youtube Private Messaging with a man and a woman, they told me about their lives, how desperate they were. It was awful, i felt sorry for them. Their lives were miserable and without hope. They told me they weren't racist but wanted to vote for the Le Pen family because nobody was paying attention to them. The left and far left have abandonned the lower class. This happenned in England too. They are at fault. Tony Blair and new labour turned their backs on the poor the same way Le Parti Socialiste did in France. What the far right is doing all over Europe and in every western countries is listening to these people, lying to them like the devil to get their votes because they won't do shit for them but they give them the impression that they are listening to them something traditional left parties have totally stopped doing. This created resentment, anger and frustration they express by voting for the far right. They do this to be heard. That explains why now some are saying they voted for Brexit but don't want it now. They went to the polling stations to punish Cameron without thinking further about the consequences.

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The public was not pushing for it. Stop re-writing history. Cameron stupidly placed it into his manifesto to quell the right-wing murmurings within his own party never thinking for a second that those same people would mount the campaign they did.

And "leftie"? Nope. I guess that makes you a right wing bigot though?

The majority vote was leave. I think that pretty conclusively shows that for better or worse it was a referendum that was necessary. To be fair I've had to deal with all kinds of personal insults. It's hugely ironic because I'm super for equality and freedom. I'm just not a mindless hater and people can't deal with that apparently.

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Churchill said "Many forms of government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy isthe worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried from time to time."

meaning democracy is not perfect but it's still the best alternative we have.

You can't deny anyone's right to vote based on IQ or political stances. The word democracy comes from the greek word demos = people. Democracy = power of the people.

Of course racism is an awful thing but you can't deny a racist person the right to vote. This person could tell you, you shouldn't be allowed to vote because you're not racist and don't understand anything, that you are the stupid one.

If we start sying who is allowed to vote and who isn't then why stop at racism ? This could open the doors to barring women, non white people, gays etc....from voting.

The only thing we can do and should be doing is making racist political organizations and parties illegal. But since they are clever they know what they can say and can't to not be prosecuted.

Not allowing racists to vote is also saying that leftists are more intelligent. I can tell you that's not the case. I left many organizations from the left and far left because now too many have crossed the line from disagreeing with Israel racist and fascist governement ( not only they are against palestinians but also against non white jews. They want Gaza to put arab jews and black jews there, separated from white jews. They even sterilized ethiopian women who were jews and wanted to migrate in Israel so that's why i'm saying the israeli governement is racist and fascist) to being overtly antisemitic. I joined these organizations to fight islamophobia, homophobia etc....and i found myself with people being unashamed to be overtly antisemitic (and some homophobes too).

We are living in sad times. WWII was 80 years ago, people forgot or don't try to know.

What we should do too is not barring people we think are not intelligent enough to vote (who are we to decide ????) but forcing people who don't vote (but complain after) to vote. Every poll and election should have at least an 80 % turnout or the poll/election should be cancelled. Some countries make it mandatory to vote. Even though i think it goes against everyone's freedom, i'm starting to think that it's not so bad when there's a crucial poll/election like this one.

I don't support the left as obviously I don't support the right. I don't believe in politics. I think it's a game of money and power where socially speaking no one really cares about the people.. Especially the one with little next to nothing. I should know that myself as I come from and still live in a council estate. Politics doesn't phase me..but I do believe when your country calls you for a vote you either get informed the best way you can or you just stay out of it. And yes I still stand by the idea that a racist shouldn't have any decision making.. Same for an homophobe or a sexist or whoever is not intelligent enough to understand we are all one! No one would give the atomic bomb to Isis... So if you're part of any hate group or proved to have those extreme hateful ideas their rights shouldn't be taken into consideration.. I'm certainly open to try and change their views at any cost but I would never EVER take them into consideration.. Hate has to be eradicated. Those people haven't got the best interest for their country so why even entertain them? EU nationals were not allowed to vote in this referendum.. And they live here and they work and pay taxes but the government refused to give them a vote... So it's okay to give the vote to racists but not to working tax paying EU nationals?

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The majority vote was leave. I think that pretty conclusively shows that for better or worse it was a referendum that was necessary. To be fair I've had to deal with all kinds of personal insults. It's hugely ironic because I'm super for equality and freedom. I'm just not a mindless hater and people can't deal with that apparently.

You've had no personal insults in here. I mean you even got your own little thread all about this issue instead of it staying in the Brexit one.

The constant victim hood going on around here lately is ridiculous and unwarranted.

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You are so wrong. I would have been marching with him. I would have pushed him out of the way of that bullet. Just because I'm not as idealistic as you it doesn't mean I don't believ in better. Open your mind a bit more if you want to actually know what I'm about.

Well you can show me a little bit more then man. I thought we Madonna fans we were at least on the same page when it comes down to some sort of politics and how to view the world. The woman didn't do the revolution of love for nothing! Lol

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Of course it is Cameron's fault. He did not have to have a referendum on this and did so to appease the factions in his party. Then he starts campaigning for a remain vote. Similar to our Pm Malcolm Turnbull who wants gay marriage but is going to have a public vote to please the religious factions of his party instead of just bringing it in.

You keep calling people lefties but I am pretty sure you agree with universal healthcare and welfare and benefits. You are more left wing than you care to admit.

I am not exactly left or right. I think they are just awful tribes that end up pretty spiteful. I'm all for universal healthcare, I want more rights and support for working parents, I want social issues to be tackled, I want children to have more creative outlets and I want women to have equal rights to men. I don't think I need to hate on people or throw my dummy out of the pram to get it done.

Like I said to Kim...the majority vote wanted to Leave and 34.5 million people turned out to vote. This proves it obviously is an issue people wanted a voice on. Politicians are supposed to encourage change and allow the people to have a voice. If the decision of voters was wrong we will know in time. I don't think Cameron did anything wrong in allowing the referendum. Democracies rely on free speech.

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You've had no personal insults in here. I mean you even got your own little thread all about this issue instead of it staying in the Brexit one.

The constant victim hood going on around here lately is ridiculous and unwarranted.

The thread I made is different. Let's face it...the other is the #leave voters on blast thread/doomsday thread. I wanted to know what Europeans feel about the EU themselves and many obliged with interesting points. Interesting to see that in those countries the leave voters aren't all accused of being evil right wing nazis. I'm not and never will be a victim but I won't sit around like a doormat while somebody elsr is praised for the same thing I'm berrated for.

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I don't support the left as obviously I don't support the right. I don't believe in politics. I think it's a game of money and power where socially speaking no one really cares about the people.. Especially the one with little next to nothing. I should know that myself as I come from and still live in a council estate. Politics doesn't phase me..but I do believe when your country calls you for a vote you either get informed the best way you can or you just stay out of it. And yes I still stand by the idea that a racist shouldn't have any decision making.. Same for an homophobe or a sexist or whoever is not intelligent enough to understand we are all one! No one would give the atomic bomb to Isis... So if you're part of any hate group or proved to have those extreme hateful ideas their rights shouldn't be taken into consideration.. I'm certainly open to try and change their views at any cost but I would never EVER take them into consideration.. Hate has to be eradicated. Those people haven't got the best interest for their country so why even entertain them? EU nationals were not allowed to vote in this referendum.. And they live her and they work and pay taxes but the government refused to give them a vote... So it's okay to give the vote to racists bit not to working tax paying EU nationals?

I get what you're saying but it would anti democratic to bar people from voting based one their views. It goes against the very principle of democracy and voting.

What happenned in England and what's happenning all over Europe and the United States (pretty sure the campaign will turn into a racist circus...it already has) is that immigration became the key subject in every campaign, pushing everything else under the rug. That's a big victory for the far right wing in itself because they take hostage the debate and direct it.

How W. Bush managed to be reelected and go to war ? By manipulating fears. That's what politicians, especially from the right do. They build an enemy they say they will protect the people against.

This way they have a field day fucking up the economy once they diverted the attention on immigration. Racism and xenophobia are basic human traits that are easy to manipulate.

As long as people are occupied with foreigners, gays etc....they don't put their nose in the economy. That's why the media owned by racist pigs feed them with infotainment and racist stories. As long as people have their brains stuck on the latest from some reality tv stars and celebrities they can judge or foreigners they can blame, they don't have time to look into the real reasons why their lives are being fucked up. And the economy is not a person, the market is not a person, these are disembodied entities they can't point their fingers at and they need someone to blame for their misery.

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I don't think Cameron did anything wrong in allowing the referendum. Democracies rely on free speech.

Allow? He did suggest the referendum by himself. No one did ask him to do it. Not as far I know. From my perspective he he did use the referendum to deal with issues within his own party. Much of what has happened in the last weeks looks more like a pissing contest between Cameron and Johnson. I have heard the rivalry between the two of them goes back to their school days. Very irresponsible behaviour by Cameron.

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The thread I made is different. Let's face it...the other is the #leave voters on blast thread/doomsday thread. I wanted to know what Europeans feel about the EU themselves and many obliged with interesting points. Interesting to see that in those countries the leave voters aren't all accused of being evil right wing nazis. I'm not and never will be a victim but I won't sit around like a doormat while somebody elsr is praised for the same thing I'm berrated for.

More nonsense. The same points are and were being made in both threads. That intelligent people like Roland, XXL etc who are actually attempting real discussion is a shame, because others are being put off contributing to that debate.

Oh, and no-one else is going all around the forum referencing what's going on in this section are they? except the victim players.

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I get what you're saying but it would anti democratic to bar people from voting based one their views. It goes against the very principle of democracy and voting.

What happenned in England and what's happenning all over Europe and the United States (pretty sure the campaign will turn into a racist circus...it already has) is that immigration became the key subject in every campaign, pushing everything else under the rug. That's a big victory for the far right wing in itself because they take hostage the debate and direct it.

How W. Bush managed to be reelected and go to war ? By manipulating fears. That's what politicians, especially from the right do. They build an enemy they say they will protect the people against.

This way they have a field day fucking up the economy once they diverted the attention on immigration. Racism and xenophobia are basic human traits that are easy to manipulate.

As long as people are occupied with foreigners, gays etc....they don't put their nose in the economy. That's why the media owned by racist pigs feed them with infotainment and racist stories. As long as people have their brains stuck on the latest from some reality tv stars and celebrities they can judge or foreigners they can blame, they don't have time to look into the real reasons why their lives are being fucked up. And the economy is not a person, the market is not a person, these are disembodied entities they can't point their fingers at and they need someone to blame for their misery.

Absolutely.. They have been talking about immigration giving way to ideas of xenophobia, racism and intolerance. For example no one is actually taking the global warming issue seriously but this is also coming from the public so to speak. People in general want to stay ignorant on the issue. Same as immigration. If knowledge is power what's stopping these people to get some facts before going to vote.. If people don't believe in globalisation what's even the point in discussing anything? They ll stay ignorant because they want to. We can all blame the government and parliament and everything else in between but we also have to take responsibility for our own actions and decisions. People have allowed this racist/ anti immigration sentiment to sweep across the nation and its about time these people open their hearts and minds to a different world.. I take satisfaction from knowing the new generations and younger people voted In... Goes to show what the ancient, bitter, old and ignorant people can do for their country. I wonder how many of them suffer of dementia..now would you give a vote to a mentally unstable person? Are crazy people in an asylum allowed to vote?

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Absolutely.. They have been talking about immigration giving way to ideas of xenophobia, racism and intolerance. For example no one is actually taking the global warming issue seriously but this is also coming from the public so to speak. People in general want to stay ignorant on the issue. Same as immigration. If knowledge is power what's stopping these people to get some facts before going to vote.. If people don't believe in globalisation what's even the point in discussing anything? They ll stay ignorant because they want to. We can all blame the government and parliament and everything else in between but we also have to take responsibility for our own actions and decisions. People have allowed this racist/ anti immigration sentiment to sweep across the nation and its about time these people open their hearts and minds to a different world.. I take satisfaction from knowing the new generations and younger people voted In... Goes to show what the ancient, bitter, old and ignorant people can do for their country. I wonder how many of them suffer of dementia..now would you give a vote to a mentally unstable person? Are crazy people in an asylum allowed to vote?

Of course they are allowed to. That's democracy.

It's too simplicistic to say old people with dementia voted out. They are from another generation, a generation that was against Europe. As you grow old you have more fears, you start thinking things were better in the past blah blah blah because they don't understand the world they live in ; internet, gay marriage, non white people being born brit citizens....they also look at their pension checks and the little they get compared to the lies spread in the media that migrants and people on benefit get make them mad. This election showed a clash not only of classes but of generations as well.

A french economist came up a few years ago with the idea that the younger you were, the more time you have to live the more your vote should count with a points system. But it was unrealistic, it's already a nightmare to organize an election the way they are and it costs a fortune as well.

people vote left, get fucked and then vote right as retaliation, they get fucked again and vote far right, get fucked again and vote far left and on and on until they become suspicious of politics and don't vote anymore.

We live in a world where we get so much informations, all the time and yet people are misinformed. Most of the time the media don't work as an informant but they give their readers what they want to sell more. It's a monster that feeds itself in the end.

The first signs of this debacle came the moment left parties abandonned the lower class and opened an avenue to populism the far right took advantage of.

In France and in England after years of political austerity and debacles, people start seeing politicians from the right and the left as part of the establishment they come from the same elitist schools, wealth etc...the lower class don't see themselves in these people, technocrats and scholars. That's why most far right leaders have been working for years on erasing their backgrounds and started talking and dressing like comon people, pointing out they did not go to these elitist schools, that they come from the people blah blah (Marine Le Pen almost makes people forget she comes from money) : we have these populist characters that appeared in England like Boris Johnson, Beppe Grillo in Italy or Trump in the US. All playing the card of the regular guy against the establishment. Populists. They know they can get their votes from the people the left abandonned. Instead of pulling them up, they look for the worst in them (racism, homophobia....) and exploit it.

If we were to bar racists from voting it would only give them more power because they could say "Look, the establishment is trying to shut you up. They are against you exactly like we told you and you suspected". It would only fuel what they are already telling people. They manipulate the masses by making them suspicious of politics and democracy. When you say we should bar racists from voting you don't realize it but you only are playing their games because that's what they want. They want to show people that our system is not right and against them.

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Guest Rachelle of London

Oh god is this thread gonna be locked soon? It's actually good to see the opinions of other EU members. How is that even a problem?

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Being from Denmark, there is no way I want us to leave the EU... but I have to be honest and say that I by now am sick and tired of most politicians... what a stuck up and horrible group of people... most of them do not give a shit about their populations... and they for sure do not work to create better lives for their populations... they work for own winnings and power... and enjoy spreading hate between different population groups to remove the focus from the real problems... themselves :p

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first of all I rather would give more power to the european union, built it more on a system where the parliament has more to say - change the structure of the parliament to reflect the actual populations of the countries. Since that would go against interest, maybe a second chamber should be built up, preferrably also with a majority vote in the council (I know that has been proposed and was shut down by people).

Without more unification europe will spiral into even more insignificance and then we definitely will only follow what others say and side with the "big guys". And even if I prefer rather the US to russia or China, I neither want european society to become even more influenced by the US. I want to keep social security on a half way decent level and hope that people will keep on clinging to the idea that supporting other in need is the way to go and needed.

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People are always talking about national security.... Stop making weapons then! I'm sick of people who always lament national and international security as means to see other countries or organisations as threats! We will always live under threats if we are still building weapons!

The west is responsible for making and selling weapons. It's absurd that no politician has ever come out against that! Don't see why any country would want to invest in their national security if there's actually no threat but especially now with the coming of Isis they sold that idea to people who are led to believe they should live in fear for their lives. They would use anything to alarm people and make them go against each other. If they truly wanted to stop all the wars in the world they have the power to do that in this time and age they simply won't because they chose money/ greed over peace. It's disgusting. The unbalance between rich and poor countries is scary.. The way they're influencing common folks with their lies and manipulations and a "pink" media has made a big fraction of society dumber and dumber..

But as we seem to be witnessing to a world that's tumbling down we also have to rest assured this is not the end and if anything the world is really changing for the better.. Just the fact there's more acceptance and tolerance towards human beings.. The way people are aware of racism or sexism or homophobia or bullying and how negatively those things are perceived at least in the public eye should keep us hoping that one day soon we will find better ways to form the real society and start a completely different adventure with a new humanity.

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People are always talking about national security.... Stop making weapons then! I'm sick of people who always lament national and international security as means to see other countries or organisations as threats! We will always live under threats if we are still building weapons!

The west is responsible for making and selling weapons. It's absurd that no politician has ever come out against that! Don't see why any country would want to invest in their national security if there's actually no threat but especially now with the coming of Isis they sold that idea to people who are led to believe they should live in fear for their lives. They would use anything to alarm people and make them go against each other. If they truly wanted to stop all the wars in the world they have the power to do that in this time and age they simply won't because they chose money/ greed over peace. It's disgusting. The unbalance between rich and poor countries is scary.. The way they're influencing common folks with their lies and manipulations and a "pink" media has made a big fraction of society dumber and dumber..

But as we seem to be witnessing to a world that's tumbling down we also have to rest assured this is not the end and if anything the world is really changing for the better.. Just the fact there's more acceptance and tolerance towards human beings.. The way people are aware of racism or sexism or homophobia or bullying and how negatively those things are perceived at least in the public eye should keep us hoping that one day soon we will find better ways to form the real society and start a completely different adventure with a new humanity.

I think by social security he was referring to a benefit system to help the vulnerable people in society. :lol:

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Of course they are allowed to. That's democracy.

It's too simplicistic to say old people with dementia voted out. They are from another generation, a generation that was against Europe. As you grow old you have more fears, you start thinking things were better in the past blah blah blah because they don't understand the world they live in ; internet, gay marriage, non white people being born brit citizens....they also look at their pension checks and the little they get compared to the lies spread in the media that migrants and people on benefit get make them mad. This election showed a clash not only of classes but of generations as well.

A french economist came up a few years ago with the idea that the younger you were, the more time you have to live the more your vote should count with a points system. But it was unrealistic, it's already a nightmare to organize an election the way they are and it costs a fortune as well.

people vote left, get fucked and then vote right as retaliation, they get fucked again and vote far right, get fucked again and vote far left and on and on until they become suspicious of politics and don't vote anymore.

We live in a world where we get so much informations, all the time and yet people are misinformed. Most of the time the media don't work as an informant but they give their readers what they want to sell more. It's a monster that feeds itself in the end.

The first signs of this debacle came the moment left parties abandonned the lower class and opened an avenue to populism the far right took advantage of.

In France and in England after years of political austerity and debacles, people start seeing politicians from the right and the left as part of the establishment they come from the same elitist schools, wealth etc...the lower class don't see themselves in these people, technocrats and scholars. That's why most far right leaders have been working for years on erasing their backgrounds and started talking and dressing like comon people, pointing out they did not go to these elitist schools, that they come from the people blah blah (Marine Le Pen almost makes people forget she comes from money) : we have these populist characters that appeared in England like Boris Johnson, Beppe Grillo in Italy or Trump in the US. All playing the card of the regular guy against the establishment. Populists. They know they can get their votes from the people the left abandonned. Instead of pulling them up, they look for the worst in them (racism, homophobia....) and exploit it.

If we were to bar racists from voting it would only give them more power because they could say "Look, the establishment is trying to shut you up. They are against you exactly like we told you and you suspected". It would only fuel what they are already telling people. They manipulate the masses by making them suspicious of politics and democracy. When you say we should bar racists from voting you don't realize it but you only are playing their games because that's what they want. They want to show people that our system is not right and against them.

But my point is not just about stopping them from voting... my point is those ideas should have been dead and buried or at least dealt with many many years ago.. Maybe all these people should go watch Schindler List or The Colour Purple or American Hystory X, etc...how can someone in 2016 still hold those ideas is beyond me! The racial issue should have stopped being an issue ages ago. As you said yourself it's a monster feeding on itself and they let that happen.. So we are bombarded every day with this idea that bullying, racism and sexism and all of that is deteriorating to our society but we still entertain those voices. This is nothing to be taken lightly in my opinion. Let's not forget that racism is a crime first and foremost! If people went on the street being sympathetic to paedophiles or to actually push a paedophilia agenda no one and I repeat no one would stand for it. But racism is somehow acceptable... So a democracy must cater those ideas as well? It's BS! Racism is just as bad as paedophilia. Anything that goes against another human being for a reason or another will always be a social threat to our society ( the so called social disease) but racism must be tolerated, even respected according to some people. I refuse to believe that. Sorry!

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I think by social security he was referring to a benefit system to help the vulnerable people in society. :lol:

Regardless. These governments are always pushing a military agenda.. According to the media we have to be afraid of Isis. We have to be afraid of Russia. We have to be afraid of South Korea. We have to be afraid of China... People need to wake up and understand if these western countries stopped making weapons we wouldn't have to be afraid of anyone!

And then yes they can use all that money for human resources instead of the military so yes they would create a better social security system as in helping vulnerable people, etc... They always moan the lack of money but their wages are always getting fatter and fatter.. The system goes on completely unchallenged and this is why we are where we are because anyone is afraid of change!

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Regardless. These governments are always pushing a military agenda.. According to the media we have to be afraid of Isis. We have to be afraid of Russia. We have to be afraid of South Korea. We have to be afraid of China... People need to wake up and understand if these western countries stopped making weapons we wouldn't have to be afraid of anyone!

And then yes they can use all that money for human resources instead of the military so yes they would create a better social security system as in helping vulnerable people, etc... They always moan the lack of money but their wages are always getting fatter and fatter.. The system goes on completely unchallenged and this is why we are where we are because anyone is afraid of change!

No offense but if you want a conspiracy/nwo thread please make one. This is a thread to discuss how other EU countries feel about the European Union.

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Guest Rachelle of London

Regardless. These governments are always pushing a military agenda.. According to the media we have to be afraid of Isis. We have to be afraid of Russia. We have to be afraid of South Korea. We have to be afraid of China... People need to wake up and understand if these western countries stopped making weapons we wouldn't have to be afraid of anyone!

And then yes they can use all that money for human resources instead of the military so yes they would create a better social security system as in helping vulnerable people, etc... They always moan the lack of money but their wages are always getting fatter and fatter.. The system goes on completely unchallenged and this is why we are where we are because anyone is afraid of change!

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