karbatal Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 I've been working this week on an article about sexism and its effects on toys for little kids. It's incredible that after so many decades we still have just babies and make up and fluffy things for girls and all action and superhero, science and construction blocks are for boys. At least, in tv ads. And to be fair, tv still has a big impact on our minds. Then i was playing Kylie's Christmas album and thought that this fluffy girl, princessy and girlie is the epytome of that message that marketing is spreading for decades: the giggly, delicate, a bit naive girl, with little glimpses of being a whore. And then i remembered Madonna. In the Rolling Stone interview from 1987, she says that she stands for all things that women can't do. She was so powerful and strong and sexual, and sensual and femenine at the same time... She was never the stupid giggling girlie absurd girl. She was master of her own body and used sex whenever she pleased with whoever she pleased. Compare Madonna to those princesses from the 90s and 00s and the megawhores from nowadays. Just look at Rihanna, at Nikki with that monster ass. And Ariana Grande, that pedo dream. Only Beyonce (and i don't like her much) shows some power (in a bit reductive way, but at least she portraits herself in comand). Thank God we had Madonna. Imagine a world without her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudet Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 I've been working this week on an article about sexism and its effects on toys for little kids. It's incredible that after so many decades we still have just babies and make up and fluffy things for girls and all action and superhero, science and construction blocks are for boys. At least, in tv ads. And to be fair, tv still has a big impact on our minds. Then i was playing Kylie's Christmas album and thought that this fluffy girl, princessy and girlie is the epytome of that message that marketing is spreading for decades: the giggly, delicate, a bit naive girl, with little glimpses of being a whore. And then i remembered Madonna. In the Rolling Stone interview from 1987, she says that she stands for all things that women can't do. She was so powerful and strong and sexual, and sensual and femenine at the same time... She was never the stupid giggling girlie absurd girl. She was master of her own body and used sex whenever she pleased with whoever she pleased. Compare Madonna to those princesses from the 90s and 00s and the megawhores from nowadays. Just look at Rihanna, at Nikki with that monster ass. And Ariana Grande, that pedo dream. Only Beyonce (and i don't like her much) shows some power (in a bit reductive way, but at least she portraits herself in comand). Thank God we had Madonna. Imagine a world without her? Very well put! :clap: :clap: :clap: A world without Madonna? Oh no, it would be like a world without oxygen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rachelle of London Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 It's so true! What people don't understand about Madonna is that she uses the female body as a symbol of strength. You've never seen her been objectified during her career. She shows her body when she wants to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nora Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 You are absolutely right! She always had control over what she did and still does. She has never been "slutty", like other celebraties have been, because she alwayas was in control. Every woman should recognize what she did and still is doing and be proud of her! She stands for strength and self-confidence! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnpaul911 Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Madonna: say what you wanna about me behind your computer or cellphone. Would you say it to my face? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Well said. I think Madonna taught a female generation to empower themselves and use sex as a tool. Credit has to be given to the women who came before her as well. Janis Joplin used sex in her work and lyrics and said, "This is who I am. I can sing about fucking any man I want, and I'm in control of my own life". Debbie Harry as well. She was a tough New York City girl who was the only female in her band. She used it to her advantage. She was an original punk girl who openly used sex as symbol of strength. I take this subject very seriously and learned from Janis, Debbie and Madonna. I pride myself on what I learned from them from the age of ten. My mother also played a huge role in my attitude about sex. I remember asking her at very early age what the song "Get It While You Can" was about. She didn't lie or hold back her explanation. She told me, before you subject myself make sure you've given it very serious thought and always take control of every situation in your life. She is my mother and also very protective, but she isn't stupid either. She knew I had an extremely strong sexual energy and she made sure I knew how to use it. I had many talks with her and my aunt about it. Use it wisely and show people what you're made of. Femininity is power. Sex is power. And, I personally, know what I'm doing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pud Whacker Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudet Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Well said. I think Madonna taught a female generation to empower themselves and use sex as a tool. Credit has to be given to the women who came before her as well. Janis Joplin used sex in her work and lyrics and said, "This is who I am. I can sing about fucking any man I want, and I'm in control of my own life". Debbie Harry as well. She was a tough New York City girl who was the only female in her band. She used it to her advantage. She was an original punk girl who openly used sex as symbol of strength. I take this subject very seriously and learned from Janis, Debbie and Madonna. I pride myself on what I learned from them from the age of ten. My mother also played a huge role in attitude about sex. I remember asking her at very early age what the song "Get It While You Can" was about. She didn't lie or hold back her explanation. She told me, before I subject myself make sure you given it very serious thought and always take control of every situation in your life. She is my mother and also very protective, but she isn't stupid either. She knew I had an extremely strong sexual energy and she made sure I knew how to use it. I had many talks with her and my aunt about it. Use it wisely and show people what you're made of. Femininity is power. Sex is power. And, I personally, know what I'm doing! My all time favorite Janis' song and well done to you too! Couldn't agree more!! :clap: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnpaul911 Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Madonna is the last true icon is music. Her whole career people have hated on her and predicted her downfall. Now in music all the girls and even the boys use the media as she did. Sex or otherwise. Its her career they are following. None else's.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5iVe Elements Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skadi Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Madonna has always been sexy on her own terms and a lot of heterosexual men don't like her for that. She was way ahead of her time, showing that women can be feminine and strong at the same time. She is the first woman that I had seen who had big muscles and still kept her femininity. And by that I don't mean the giggly, delicate flower waiting for a man to come rescue her-feminity. I was so surprised during the 90s when after all this time with Madonna, the next big thing was Britney Spears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tasteinmen Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 You say 'had' but we still have her! Good point though, Kylie's 'innocence' has started grating on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick00 Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Bey and gags might be part of all the rage in some university gender department these days, but M has been fascinating in the way she expresses and navigates hot button issues related to masculinity/femininity, religion and sexuality, ageism, etc. She'll continue to push societal boundaries even though the dopey media downplays her cultural relevance and impact on other female artists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Madonna has always been sexy on her own terms and a lot of heterosexual men don't like her for that. She was way ahead of her time, showing that women can be feminine and strong at the same time. She is the first woman that I had seen who had big muscles and still kept her femininity. And by that I don't mean the giggly, delicate flower waiting for a man to come rescue her-feminity. I was so surprised during the 90s when after all this time with Madonna, the next big thing was Britney Spears. It pisses me off so much that some heterosexual men, not all but some, can't handle a powerful woman. Their first reaction is to objectify her or pass her off. It's because they are intimidated and don't understand their own sexuality. When I get into arguments about Madonna, it's usually with patriarchal type men who think women should be pregnant and in the kitchen. Closed minded and not willing to be sexually submissive. I do, however, get into a lot of great conversations with men about how much they like Madonna and what she stands for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karbatal Posted December 6, 2015 Author Share Posted December 6, 2015 Well said. I think Madonna taught a female generation to empower themselves and use sex as a tool. Credit has to be given to the women who came before her as well. Janis Joplin used sex in her work and lyrics and said, "This is who I am. I can sing about fucking any man I want, and I'm in control of my own life". Debbie Harry as well. She was a tough New York City girl who was the only female in her band. She used it to her advantage. She was an original punk girl who openly used sex as symbol of strength. I take this subject very seriously and learned from Janis, Debbie and Madonna. I pride myself on what I learned from them from the age of ten. My mother also played a huge role in my attitude about sex. I remember asking her at very early age what the song "Get It While You Can" was about. She didn't lie or hold back her explanation. She told me, before you subject myself make sure you've given it very serious thought and always take control of every situation in your life. She is my mother and also very protective, but she isn't stupid either. She knew I had an extremely strong sexual energy and she made sure I knew how to use it. I had many talks with her and my aunt about it. Use it wisely and show people what you're made of. Femininity is power. Sex is power. And, I personally, know what I'm doing! wow, love it. And you are so lucky you had such a good environmet to learn and to look at the world. I love dearly my family, but i had zero imput in looking at the world with wonder. For them it's all about work and save, work and save, get a home, have some kids, etc. Lovely post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 wow, love it. And you are so lucky you had such a good environmet to learn and to look at the world. I love dearly my family, but i had zero imput in looking at the world with wonder. For them it's all about work and save, work and save, get a home, have some kids, etc. Lovely post. Thanks, Karb. When I was a teenager my mom once said to me, "Honey, I'm going to give you some really good advice and I hope you take it...do not have children." I took it. My mom is an extremely liberated woman who grew up in LA in the 50s and 60s. She saw some bad things and faced true sexism and racism. When she was a teenager, she and her black boyfriend were once asked to leave a restaurant. She swore she would never raise her children to be closed-minded. I love my mom, she's 75 and still liberated as ever. And, she's a huge Madonna fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacket Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Brilliant thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudet Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 It pisses me off so much that some heterosexual men, not all but some, can't handle a powerful woman. Their first reaction is to objectify her or pass her off. It's because they are intimidated and don't understand their own sexuality. When I get into arguments about Madonna, it's usually with patriarchal type men who think women should be pregnant and in the kitchen. Closed minded and not willing to be sexually submissive. I do, however, get into a lot of great conversations with men about how much they like Madonna and what she stands for. I usually get into arguments about Madonna with close-minded women in their 20s who write her off has an old hag who should've retired 20 years ago. I think some women are worst than some straight men when it comes to ageist remarks against Madonna. As you cannot reason with that normally I tell them to keep their Rihanna, Britney, Beyonce, Minaj, Perry and have a wonderful short shallow life together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Barthes Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Madonna is always dominant, she's a top. She's not sexy, she's sexual. The Sex book is not about being sexy, it's about being in charge of your sexuality. When she walks that feline walk in Desperately Seeking susan all over New York sidewalks, she does not ooze sexyness but sexuality. Kylie way of being sexy is asexual, with Madonna you know that she really fucks and she even looks like she just did. She's not playing the male fantasies but her own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rachelle of London Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Thanks, Karb. When I was a teenager my mom once said to me, "Honey, I'm going to give you some really good advice and I hope you take it...do not have children." I took it. My mom is an extremely liberated woman who grew up in LA in the 50s and 60s. She saw some bad things and faced true sexism and racism. When she was a teenager, she and her black boyfriend were once asked to leave a restaurant. She swore she would never raise her children to be closed-minded. I love my mom, she's 75 and still liberated as ever. And, she's a huge Madonna fan. Your mum sounds amazing. She's raised a wonderful woman! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micco Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Can someone explain to me how come Beyonce is a greater icon in many feminist circles than Madonna? It's just beyond me, I can not understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollhouse Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Can someone explain to me how come Beyonce is a greater icon in many feminist circles than Madonna? It's just beyond me, I can not understand it. Who? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rachelle of London Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Can someone explain to me how come Beyonce is a greater icon in many feminist circles than Madonna? It's just beyond me, I can not understand it. As a Beyoncé fan even I don't understand that. However during sociology and media studies Madonna came up a LOT in my studies. Especially to do with feminism. Madonna is a lot more widely respected than we realise. Especially in academia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micco Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 As a Beyoncé fan even I don't understand that. However during sociology and media studies Madonna came up a LOT in my studies. Especially to do with feminism. Madonna is a lot more widely respected than we realise. Especially in academia. Ah, I have studied sociology too but never dealt with artists. But it's nice that you say that. I have just felt, and this is totally non-scientific, that many feminist women have a hard time understanding how to interpret Madonna, because she comes across as more complex with her personas over the years than say Beyonce. I like Beyonce too, as an artist, but I have never felt that she's a great feminist icon, her statements in that department are rather tedious and not so interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rachelle of London Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Ah, I have studied sociology too but never dealt with artists. But it's nice that you say that. I have just felt, and this is totally non-scientific, that many feminist women have a hard time understanding how to interpret Madonna, because she comes across as more complex with her personas over the years than say Beyonce. I like Beyonce too, as an artist, but I have never felt that she's a great feminist icon, her statements in that department are rather tedious and not so interesting. Have you noticed that some of "academic feminists" tear women down just as much in some cases even more than the people they "bash" it irks me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikki Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 warning: rant even the so called open minded feminists always put women in boxes and tell them how to behave. (although I should specify.. the self proclaimed "feminists" who are the loudest, and they get their big audience online. so Im not talking about sociology classes.) the worst kind of people are the ones who say that we have artists like britney (and all those other girls) who are being submissive to men by being sexual and "sell" their music that way. NO WAY. britney's team basically dumbed madonna's STYLE and sound down, mixed in janet, and made it for kids and approachable. like an early taylor swift. Madonna is Madonnas own boss. and yes I think beyoncé is as well and I like that about her. however I do think she plays it a little safe. from what I know she hasn't made any interesting comments about it yet. Madonna talked about ageism from her early 30s. ( & refused to shave and act like all girls in her school, so its not just a fake PR thing, it's who Madonna is) I dont think Ive ever seen one of those self proclaimed vocal feminists just flat out say that a strong woman should be one who REALLY does her own thing no matter what society says. one who doesn't follow the rules. and men really are allowed to do whatever they want. I just saw a tour poster of The Cure. they look photoshopped and plastic. no one says shit. some women I talk to @ madonna's concerts (informed M fans by the way, not the "curious fans" who wanna see like a virgin) say the same thing. they love madonna because she really is doing what she wants and isn't tactful just to play it safe and please everyone but there is something to it that madonna is complex. and maybe thats why they dont like her, because they can't categorise her or put her into a box. she is too politically incorrect yet sometimes makes bubblegum pop. and I always think she's internally more of a punk/rockstar who just loves to put on an entertaining "pop" show and make mainstream music. so they're confused..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5iVe Elements Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 I think the difference between Bey and M was how they grew up. Bey had a father who helped her career so in a way Beyonce never really felt hardship (i may be wrong though) compared to Madonna who had to work harder, didnt have a privileged background, and so from an early age she learned how to fight for what she wants. Beyonce earned her success no doubt about that. But she did it in the net of safety in the form of Matthew. Madonna had more to prove and truly had no one but herself and took risks at the early stage of her career which is why she's become so brave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 wonderful thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip The Switch Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Madonna has always been sexy on her own terms and a lot of heterosexual men don't like her for that. She was way ahead of her time, showing that women can be feminine and strong at the same time. She is the first woman that I had seen who had big muscles and still kept her femininity. And by that I don't mean the giggly, delicate flower waiting for a man to come rescue her-feminity. I was so surprised during the 90s when after all this time with Madonna, the next big thing was Britney Spears. Agree with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Madonna is always dominant, she's a top. She's not sexy, she's sexual. The Sex book is not about being sexy, it's about being in charge of your sexuality. When she walks that feline walk in Desperately Seeking susan all over New York sidewalks, she does not ooze sexyness but sexuality. Kylie way of being sexy is asexual, with Madonna you know that she really fucks and she even looks like she just did. She's not playing the male fantasies but her own. That's just it. She's not always dominant. She's open to show her vulnerability to others. She knows she's not perfect and openly sings about it. This why I like her so much. She is as they say, "all woman". She has many sides and they're all beautiful. I believe that she wants to play to part of men's fantasies as well as her own. She's not afraid to do both. Like it or not, women want it both ways. And the powerful ones get it. Yes, she fucks. But she also wants to be fucked. I'm sure she's an incredible bottom who shows deep emotion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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