Detecting hypocrisy in Madonna-bashers

[qans1990]

Not sure if this is the right thread for it, but great article:

http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2015/oct/21/detecting-hypocrisy-madonna-bashers/#

Detecting hypocrisy in Madonna-bashers

Sneetches and freaks

By Barbarella Fokos, Oct. 21, 2015

The women were gathered around a table. Their hands remained at their sides while their eyes indulged in lingering gazes at the arrangement of appetizers: cheeses, fruit, bread, and hot spanakopita bites, whose consistency of form broadcast their frozen origin. Eventually, one of the women — young, wispy — reached down, lightly secured a sliver of red pepper, waved it over some hummus, brought it to her lips and nibbled daintily, slowly, as though it would have been crass to be seen taking too large a bite.

There was only one person at this art-related function whom I had met before, but I didn’t know her well. Not that it mattered, as she had already walked away, leaving me the task of trying to not appear awkward as I continued to stand there and appreciate the fact that I wasn’t hungry. I wasn’t in the mood to be scrutinized; the way these women watched — their eyes probing here and there, swiftly darting up and down — made me want to slink away and disappear behind the nearest tree trunk.

I gave up on plotting my escape and turned my attention back to my fellow ladies. Two of them were now discussing their workout routines. One preferred yoga, but only the sweaty kind; the other was into CrossFit. They spoke about toning and looking good in their swimsuits, an ongoing concern, especially with this endless summer San Diego seems to be having.

At the mention of swimsuits, a third woman joined the fray. “I don’t have the same bikini body I used to have,” she said. “But you know what? I’m okay with how I look, because I’ve had children. I earned these stretch marks and sags!” The other women nodded in approval. But I disagreed.

“I don’t think you have to earn feeling fine about yourself,” I said. “It’s a decision you can make at any time. It’s ridiculous to think that we can’t be happy with ourselves unless we’ve paid some kind of price.”

The mother nodded in acquiescence. She turned the conversation to magazines and the unrealistic standard of beauty they present. We all agreed how terrible it is that companies make billions by convincing us it’s impossible for us to be really happy unless we look like a Photoshopped version of ourselves, and then hawking products purported to help us achieve such a narrow and impossible definition of beauty.

The mother cited the statistic that girls are developing eating disorders by the time they’re eight years old, and then she shared a story about her own daughter, who at four years old is already worried about her baby fat. There was much tsking and shaking of heads. “How are we supposed to instill confidence in our kids?”

I brought up the New York artist Caroline Caldwell, who is credited for a new proverb making the rounds online: “In a society that profits from self-doubt, it is a rebellious act to like yourself.”

“We’re all just a bunch of Sneetches,” I said, referring my favorite Dr. Seuss story. “Eager to spend whatever we have for a star to put on our bellies because someone told us it would make all the other Sneetches like and accept us.”

Heads were nodding, agreeable noises were being murmured, and two more women now felt comfortable enough to casually reach for a grape or a piece of cheese. The spanakopita remained untouched.

After a brief lull in the conversation, the mother brought up Madonna, because she’d recently read a news story that included pictures of the megastar musician. “She used to be so great, I absolutely loved her,” she said. “But then she got too skinny and now she looks like a freak.”

“I think she’s trying too hard to appear young,” said the oldest among us. “Why can’t she just age gracefully? It’s embarrassing, really.”

As they continued, I learned there is a “right” way to age, and that the actress Helen Mirren is a good example. As though reciting a Buzzfeed article, the women began to list all the things no self-respecting woman of a certain age should be caught dead wearing, from shades of lipstick to articles of clothing that included the short-shorts in which Madonna was spotted.

I attempted to crack a joke by saying, “Could you guys stop ‘should-ing’ all over the place? It’s beginning to smell out here,” but the one woman who seemed to hear me just stared blankly, as though considering something, before offering yet another suggestion: “UGG boots,” she said. “They’re barely passable if you’re in college, but after that, they shouldn’t exist in your closet.” It was hard to argue with that.

They began listing conditions that determined whether or not a woman should be “allowed” to wear a given item. Are her legs smooth or is there visible cellulite? Is her belly flat or is there a pooch? Are her arms muscular or flabby? How old is she, and does she really look that age? Because if she looks younger than she is, she can get away with a little more. It was fatiguing.

These were the same women who, not ten minutes earlier, bemoaned a culture that failed to instill confidence in young girls. Now they were bashing Madonna for being “too skinny” and detailing, with frightening specificity, what any given woman should be able to wear based on her physical characteristics. I wondered if it made them feel better about themselves, all this “knowing what was right and proudly abiding by those rules.”

I thought of the four-year-old who was already fussing over how she looked, and I could understand why. It’s not enough for us to tell our children that they’re okay just the way they are. If we really want the message to sink in, we need them to see that everyone else is okay just the way they are too. Instead of hearing Mommy say, “Madonna is too skinny, she looks like a freak,” imagine if that child heard, “There’s a woman doing her own thing — good for her.”

[Camacho]

deserves it's own thread. it will go unnoticed in gang bang's endless spam posts thread

[Jazzy Jan]

So true. Sick to death of women I know who just bash other women and their friends all the time. They are either too skinny, too fat, don't act their age, don't dress their age, should cut their hair. It is exhausting. I sit with them at work and hear them rip other women into shreds for all sorts of things. It is what I admire about men over women. They don't stand around bitching and judging each other.

Re Madonna, the hypocrisy is amazing. But it is from both men and women to be honest when talking about her age. Her age is now brought up all the time, yet I think she is one of the most inspiring women ever how she refused to worry about how she "should" be acting and looking. Plus, it is comical when people talk about her being "too old" when they look decades older than her themselves. It is with all female celebrities though. Let's face it, women are criticised for being sluts, desperate and then others for not being good looking enough. Re footballers wives and tennis player's wives, hear the same people get stuck into Roger Federer for not having a "model" as a wife and saying he should have someone better looking. Then the exact same people will be getting stuck into another star for having a "typical model type" girlfriend. They are ultra critical of every women.

[Larkspur]

Great article. My theory is that women have a weak spot when it comes to love and acceptance. They will compete for it. Ones who have never felt either one growing up feel as if they don't even belong in the game. There are plenty of younger women self loathing right now too for reasons other than age and they tend to worship women who ARE loved.

but getting back to competition among women..in competition some women would get nasty and it used to be socially acceptable to call a young woman names and talk about her if she was sexually active. They could criticize the way she dressed, talked and say that she wasn't acting how a proper lady should act.

Things were changing at a slow pace and then started to change drastically and then with the whole "don't trust anyone over 30," jazz. So it became anyone under a certain age can be free to make their own decisions about how to dress and how to act.

It's not socially acceptable now to tell a young woman how to act or dress. Since there is no stigma attached to dropping your older wife for a more worthy of love younger model, men don't feel pressured to remain faithful. Older women now in the love and acceptance department are left to either celebrate only their past glories or simply go into the recycling bin. They have become powerless.

Older women are now left with a kind of self loathing when it comes to their looks and age and want to please the society that has placed a set of rules upon them. Instead of being respected for their wisdom and beauty they are no longer apart of the game. We decide what time you cannot have children anymore regardless if the fact that all women are different. We decide what you can and can not wear. We will decide where you work and don't even think you can date a younger man. If you have a child later on in life you will be called grandmother not mother. This is hurtful to older women looking for love and acceptance outside of themselves and they will again criticize and attack other women who don't play by the rules, especially if they look good doing it as there is a bit of jealousy there.

Believe me these women wish to be just as free as Madonna but are scared of criticism and not being loved or accepted. Mentally they know that everyone should be proud of who they are but their emotions and societies rules get in the way.

[karbatal]

Good article. And yes, it's annoying.

[Guest]

I think women that are judgmental towards other women, the way Jazzy described, is appalling too. I work with a girl who gossips all day long, is on her phone and talking shit. I can't stand her.

I've never felt like I was in competition with other women. Having one very loving parent and having one shit parent, made me the kind of person who always had mixed feelings. Of course women are self-conscious and can have self esteem issues, we're human.

From my dad's side of parenting, I always criticized myself. I was never good enough. From my mom's side of parenting, I could have any man I wanted. It wasn't a question of "am I good enough?", it was a question of "when is he going to be mine?". And love was never factored into it.

Yes, I've "slept around" (I HATE that term). But it was my choice, it was a decision that I made very wisely. I wasn't desperate.

It was a hobby. It was a need for pleasure. Why can men be sluts and women can't?

But, I'm a strong believer in knowing right person you're talking to. I talk "sex talk" to appropriate people. I know when the appropriate times for sex talk are. Not with my brothers, not with my aunts or uncles, not with people at work. Sex talk is for friends, my husband. .....and MNation. You must act appropriately in that regard.

As for older women. I'm 45, I've never been in better shape, I've never looked better, and I like myself. I dress the way I want to dress. And if that means I want to wear mini skirts, then so be it. But, I know the appropriate way to dress for my age. I decided at a very early age that I didn't want children. It never appealed to me. But, I have an aunt who thinks there's something wrong with me for feeling that way.

I'm not afraid of criticism any more. I used to be. I've had the worst insults thrown at me, I had vases thrown at me. I've seen everything. Nothing shocks me. I've had two ex-husbands who took me to hell and back. I've had to make the most horrible decisions a woman can make.

Society doesn't dictate who I am. My life dictates who I am!

For the record, the term "sleeping around" is a derogatory term used for women, as disapproval for having many sex parters.

I prefer using: I fuck a lot.

[Kurt420]

I think women that are judgmental towards other women, the way Jazzy described, is appalling too. I work with a girl who gossips all day long, is on her phone and talking shit. I can't stand her.

I've never felt like I was in competition with other women. Having one very loving parent and having one shit parent, made me the kind of person who always had mixed feelings. Of course women are self-conscious and can have self esteem issues, we're human.

From my dad's side of parenting, I always criticized myself. I was never good enough. From my mom's side of parenting, I could have any man I wanted. It wasn't a question of "am I good enough?", it was a question of "when is he going to be mine?". And love was never factored into it.

Yes, I've "slept around" (I HATE that term). But it was my choice, it was a decision that I made very wisely. I wasn't desperate.

It was a hobby. It was a need for pleasure. Why can men be sluts and women can't?

But, I'm a strong believer in knowing right person you're talking to. I talk "sex talk" to appropriate people. I know when the appropriate times for sex talk are. Not with my brothers, not with my aunts or uncles, not with people at work. Sex talk is for friends, my husband. .....and MNation. You must act appropriately in that regard.

As for older women. I'm 45, I've never been in better shape, I've never looked better, and I like myself. I dress the way I want to dress. And if that means I want to wear mini skirts, then so be it. But, I know the appropriate way to dress for my age. I decided at a very early age that I didn't want children. It never appealed to me. But, I have an aunt who thinks there's something wrong with me for feeling that way.

I'm not afraid of criticism any more. I used to be. I've had the worst insults thrown at me, I had vases thrown at me. I've seen everything. Nothing shocks me. I've had two ex-husbands who took me to hell and back. I've had to make the most horrible decisions a woman can make.

Society doesn't dictate who I am. My life dictates who I am!

For the record, the term "sleeping around" is a derogatory term used for women, as disapproval for having many sex parters.

I prefer using: I fuck a lot.

I love your posts!!

[Willie]

All this year, especially, I have never seen so much "obsession" over the age of Madonna in articles, and vicious comments about it. One idea I had actually resurfaced after reading this. I will love to see Madonna use her next album to embrace this. The theme can be ageism/owning negativity and churning out something positive. Hey- she's done spiritual themed albums, sex themed albums, rebellious themed albums, so why not something a little different, but fun, ironic, and artistic with comedy as well. Usually she does use these elements.

Ageism is nothing new. All of this big deal out of Madonna's age reminded me of a show I used to watch. Some of you might remember it. It was called "Alice". There is a particular episode that jumps out. One of the character's mother wanted a gig performing, but she was replaced, because she was said to be "too old". Alice somehow managed to get her the performance anyway, and she joined her. (I think the new act cancelled). They dressed in typical cliche old lady outfits, and they hobbled out on stage, and they sang in old lady voices, but the song transitioned to "If You think I'm sexy", and they tore their old lady outfits off wearing "sexy" outfits with their legs out (but looks more like work out gear, but this was "hot" at the time, hey it was 1982 lol). I was actually impressed as an 8 year old, and it showed me back then to look passed age.

This is what I have imagined:

Madonna embraces all of the ageist comments. She calls her next album "Grandmadonna. The cover of the album is her dressed as herself looking in a mirror of herself, but dressed as a cliche typical old lady. (an alternative album cover can be the reverse) I have imagined a performance similar to the "Alice" version, but Madonna style, of course. Think of Material Girl on both WTGT and BAT where she kind of does what I consider "old lady" humor. Madonna comes out as the old lady, then strips that outfit off to who she is. For interviews, she dresses as Grandmadonna, but as a comedic alter ego, and for that part of the interview, she bashes herself. The reason they won't be in the same room together, is because Grandmadonna hates her so much. For the real Madonna interview, she is just herself. It can be empowering, because now she is just using what's out there for her own benefit. The album doesn't only have to be about age, but also the theme can be centered around other insults she has had through her career. Before the album comes out, promos can include humorous images of Madonna dressed cliche old, and the text can read "Madonna dresses her age!" or another of her knitting, and it reads, "Madonna acts her age". The album title, Grandmadonna is Madonna calling herself "Grand" as the Grand Puba, but also a joke at what society "jokes" about her age. The title song can be ala BIM, but she is taking it another step and saying she is grand. Another song can be her Grandmadonna self doing a rap battle with her actual self. Also, a song about her sleeping the way to the top, and another song of her being a mean diva using comedy, irony, and going where no one will want to go. Besides those kinds of songs, there can be the upside, and a song called "Ageless" can be about the beautiful eternity we are. It can be an interesting and daring move in her career. There is no one else who can do this, and it seems right for her to do.

[Guest]

Madonna is 57. She get's negative criticism.

Bruce Springteen is 66. He gets honorable recognition.

I'm huge Bruce fan, but I'm tired of this sexist bullshit.

[qans1990]

Some really interesting and thought provoking posts. My feeling is that, in addition to the sexism that drives the ageism directed towards Madonna (see comment above on M v. Bruce Springsteen), some of it also stems from the fact that she is single or perceived as only dating 'boytoys'. I don't know why people find this subversive but it seems like they do, and it adds an extra level of vitriol to their comments that maybe wouldn't be there if she was in a serious relationship (with a non twenty-something).

[Guest]

Some really interesting and thought provoking posts. My feeling is that, in addition to the sexism that drives the ageism directed towards Madonna (see comment above on M v. Bruce Springsteen), some of it also stems from the fact that she is single or perceived as only dating 'boytoys'. I don't know why people find this subversive but it seems like they do, and it adds an extra level of vitriol to their comments that maybe wouldn't be there if she was in a serious relationship (with a non twenty-something).

If she's single, she can date anyone she wants. She can date several different people at the same time if she wants. I agree, why this annoys people baffles me. She doesn't need to be in a serious relationship, she can do whatever she wants.

Using Springsteen as another example. He started dating his current wife before he divorced Julianne Phillips. When reflecting on Springsteen's career, nobody mentions it.

More sexism there.

[Jazzy Jan]

Madonna is 57. She get's negative criticism.

Bruce Springteen is 66. He gets honorable recognition.

I'm huge Bruce fan, but I'm tired of this sexist bullshit.

Have always noticed this. When articles were talking of Madonna and Bruce's tours, albums etc they were always stating her age and calling her "ageing" Meanwhile, they never even mentioned Bruce's age and he is older than Madonna. Ditto with Prince who is the same age as Madonna. It really is pathetic.

Also, I agree about the hypocrisy of bringing up women "sleeping around" and also think it is a dreadful expression. Seriously, whose business is it who consenting adults choose to sleep with as long as they are happy and not hurting others. As long as people are not in an "exclusive" relationship with someone - where they both agree to be faithful - who cares. Women are continually called all the names under the Sun while men are admired for it - ie he is sowing his wild oats while the women are sluts etc.