Shine Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 http://www.sfu.ca/ipinch/outputs/blog/aotm-drag-queens-and-femininity To further complicate matters, drag culture itself has become subject to appreciation/appropriation. Madonna famously showcased the art of voguing, a dance style that came about the in drag ballroom scene of the 1980s, in her “Vogue” music video. Its mainstream success helped the dance form gain popularity among a much wider audience, and Madonna established herself as an icon to many drag queens. Yet such critics as bell hooks (1995:31)have accused her of tokenism and insincerity in featuring racial and sexual minorities for her own branding purpose. As a Caucasian woman, she has taken an aspect of a niche subculture, which itself draws inspiration from feminine appearance and behavior, and capitalized on it. In this case, is this appropriation? And if so, who is appropriating from whom? And does drag benefit from its migration to a more mainstream practice, or do its nuances get reduced to its basic premise and a few catchphrases? What are your views on this ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbie Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 I've heard a few comments about this. "Madonna stole voguing from the poor blacks and latinos and never gave credit!" Yawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shine Posted May 20, 2015 Author Share Posted May 20, 2015 I've heard those too, but this article was more generic about the whole thing, not really written in a hater-way (unlike another one I came across recently). As far as I'm concerned, I never thought of "cultural appropriation" as a big deal, and I still don't, especially when it comes to music, movies or any kind of entertainment, as I believe it actually sheds light on things your average Joe wouldn't have heard about if it weren't for some artist referencing it. But it seems to be a hot topic these days, so I thought I'd start a discussion about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeakMaker Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 My view on this is how bias the medias are! MJ ripped "his" moonwalk from some other street dancer but the media rarely comments on it leaving the general public to believe he came up with that kind of dancing. Madonna never said she invented Vogue and she never acted as if she did. But she was so amazing at it and she was as good as MJ dancing but she didn't let vogueing be her dance thing the way MJ did with the moonwalk. For her, it was just one of her many "phases" and of course it became so iconic that people are still talking about it. Also, some drag queens act as if they invented anything. How can't we know for sure that the vogue dance only became famous and popular because of Madonna? Maybe if it was some other artist bringing it to the public it wouldn't have been so popular.. And let's never forget the dance song Madonna wrote for it. At that time house music was frown upon because of the connection with raving and drugs so it wasn't as straight forward as we might think. It was still a very risky affair and Madonna did an amazing job and yes I do give her credit for the Vogue dance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
le smoking Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 I'm so over the cultural appropriation police. I bet you 90% of these people don't even care or know what they're talking about. Madonna has always "appropriated" with love/admiration and did great research to understand and respect whatever culture she was exploring in her art as a means of weaving it into her own personal narrative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeakMaker Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Cultural appropriation is just another way of saying "don't do what I do because you're not like me or don't belong to my group"! It's like white people acting like blacks or straight men wearing fashionable clothes like gay men. It's such a stupid thing to say and funny thing it's been mentioned quite a lot lately and that makes me think of the real state of the world we are living now. We all should feel free to like what we want or act like we want. So Madonna admiring Nelson Mandela or Martin King is cultural appropriation? Please guys, can't you see it's all hate talk just hidden using fancy words? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shine Posted May 20, 2015 Author Share Posted May 20, 2015 I agree - although I don't see all of it as hate aimed at Madonna, at least not in that one article which seems to have a bit of thought behind it. I have yet to understand why this is all such a big topic these days. Yes, there are artists who are obviously influenced by other cultures and use that on their work. So what ? I really fail to see how this or that group should feel offended/oppressed because an artist is referencing something from their culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightshade Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 While I do understand the antagonism against cultural/artistic appropriation, you simply cannot put anything out into the Universe and expect it to remain yours forever. If you don't want people copying your art/dancing, keep it locked in a basement forever (or better yet in your mind). Even with the Internet we can see where this is going...eventually nothing expressed will be solely yours anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzy Jan Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Cultural appropriation is the biggest load of rubbish and something for whiny idiots to complain about. If only they could focus on real injustices and horrific things that are happening in the world. Instead they choose to worry about people from different cultures loving and embracing things from other cultures. They actually make me angry as getting so much attention now. People are seeing through them but it seems as if everything is offending someone over the most ridiculous things. The funniest part is most of the time it is not the culture of people that are complaining, it is the university types who are trying to get offended for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimera Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 bullshit.. Cultural appropriation is the biggest load of rubbish and something for whiny idiots to complain about. If only they could focus on real injustices and horrific things that are happening in the world. Instead they choose to worry about people from different cultures loving and embracing things from other cultures. They actually make me angry as getting so much attention now. People are seeing through them but it seems as if everything is offending someone over the most ridiculous things. The funniest part is most of the time it is not the culture of people that are complaining, it is the university types who are trying to get offended for them. my thoughts exactly baby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikki Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 well then maybe we should have more articles about black people culturally appropriating the celts and other cultures hundreds of years ago. just pointing out how fucking ridiculous it is. unless youre gaga going to china and suddenly acting chinese while ignoring it before or mocking other cultures, i see no problem with being inspired by other cultures. EVERYONE is doing that INCLUDING black communities AND latinos. but youre not supposed to say that of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camacho Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 thank God the internet and specifically grittyandrawsocialjusticewarriors of tumblr wasn't around in 1990! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick00 Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 M was mentioned in a couple of major news articles over the past week because Vogue was brought up as another example of cultural appropriation. The reason M was mentioned was because a vocal group of ANGRY people have been protesting director (Jennifer Livingston) who was making an appearance in Brooklyn for one time reshowing of her early nineties film Paris is Burning. Of course, social justice warriors are accusing both M and Livingston of somehow exploiting these kids which is far from the truth, and another example of rewriting history and bad common sense. Even MIA just had her new video banned by Interscope because it was branded cultural appropriation. Very depressing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VogueMusic Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 ...the FUCK?????.... "Paris is Burning" is now "Cultural Appropriation"...? What the flying FUCK is going on with these pseudo-academic assholes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VogueMusic Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Seriously, if you want to see how fucked up this whole argument is...just Google "Cultural Appropriation" and delve into a steaming pile of crazy ass bullshit. Yes, there is a disgusting history of minority cultures having aspects of their cultures stolen and credit given to a majority. Yes, there is a history of blackface, and the cultural mocking of other cultures based on racist stereotypes, etc... No rational person would deny that. But it's where these "social justice warriors" take things that's beyond insanity!!!! They turn that history into a weapon to police everyone else's forms of expression, to draw lines and segregate, etc.... all in the name of 'creating a more just world'....? Get the fuck out of here. It's about ego. It's about ideology. It's about manipulating and bastardizing liberal and academic principles to fit their biased worldview so they can wage ideological warfare....in the name of "social justice"... It's legitimately frightening how much attention they've gotten and where things are going... Go ahead...Google "Cultural Appropriation" and experience the insanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Barthes Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 So as a french person can i accuse voguers of cultural appropriation with their names coming from french couture houses ? As long as Jose and Luis don't talk about it, it's just bullshit from people who don't even care about it and ARE in fact using this for their own benefit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mmmmm Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Cultural appropriation police = Racists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shine Posted May 21, 2015 Author Share Posted May 21, 2015 thank God the internet and specifically grittyandrawsocialjusticewarriors of tumblr wasn't around in 1990! ♥ So as a french person can i accuse voguers of cultural appropriation with their names coming from french couture houses ? As long as Jose and Luis don't talk about it, it's just bullshit from people who don't even care about it and ARE in fact using this for their own benefit Exactly. The thing is, as I have quite a couple of SJW in my various newsfeeds, I keep having these articles forced down my throat so of course, I've read a couple of them, up to the point when I saw a video and started thinking "is this yet another cultural appropriation thing ?". It just doesn't make much sense, especially since the whole topic is a mixed-up bag, assimilating stuff like Madonna doing Vogue with white people wearing makeup to play a black character... Not exactly the same thing IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rachelle of London Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Why do you guys even fall for race baiting? Have you not noticed a lot of these articles out at the moment. Its blindingly obvious. Even Bruce Jenner turning into a woman turned into this. I cant even Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shine Posted May 21, 2015 Author Share Posted May 21, 2015 Even Bruce Jenner turning into a woman turned into this. I cant even What ? There's been cultural appropriation talk about this too ? The people... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikki Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Cultural appropriation police = Racists. you know what? i agree. they obviously don't want white people to be inspired by other cultures and embrace it. I'm sure according to them madonna isn't allowed to have Katakan or Gogol bordello on her tour either because she "uses" them. or la isla bonita as well. it's too crazy to even think about. I've stumbled upon a youtube account a few weeks ago that attacks white people who dare to TALK to black people, or black males that want to date a white woman, or attack a white person that said she wanted to stick up & support black people. its ridiculous how far its going. so what do they want? no people to be inspired by other cultures? that's fucking racism itself! if we all stay in our own "cultures", we're only separating and going away from other cultures even more. i just can't get my head around it. how are people this.. clueless? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rachelle of London Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 What ? There's been cultural appropriation talk about this too ? The people... Oh yeah, go in the Bruce Jenner thread. Full of crap about him being white and not understanding stuff, blah blah blah. Then people here blaming black people for having chips on their shoulders when the articles are all written by middle classed white people. It's beyond comical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivy Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 I remember back in the day Madonna culturally appropriating Vogue from Malcoml McClaren who did it a year earlier with Deep In Vogue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shine Posted May 21, 2015 Author Share Posted May 21, 2015 Oh yeah, go in the Bruce Jenner thread. Full of crap about him being white and not understanding stuff, blah blah blah. Then people here blaming black people for having chips on their shoulders when the articles are all written by middle classed white people. It's beyond comical. I've just read it. Disturbing. Some of the comments there ? Man, I can't even... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rachelle of London Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 I've just read it. Disturbing. Some of the comments there ? Man, I can't even... Even the Madonna kissed Drake thread. Not even kidding. It's just racial baiting. People fall for it due to so much race related issues in the media at the moment. Find me a black person that has an issue that Madonna vogued 25 years ago, like c'mon its beyond ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VogueMusic Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Oh it's truly BEYOND ridiculous... Look up "Cultural Appropriation memes" on google images... unbelievable (except for the great satirical stuff in there calling them out). There was one image from a tumblr rant saying people shouldn't eat Mexican food. Basically that if the food (or clothing, or form of expression, etc.) is not of your culture, it's completely off limits to you, and shame on you for engaging in such or thinking you even had a right to it. And this one was all about food. Them be fightin words for people like Chelle and I... No joke, it's unbelievable how irrational this whole thing has become. The examples are absolutely ABSURD. And then they go after you if you call them out on that absurdity...or even use the word "Political Correctness"... And yet they fail to realize that nearly everything in this world up to this point has been "appropriated" in some form or fashion from other/previous cultures and civilizations. E.V.E.R.Y.T.H.I.N.G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzy Jan Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Even the Madonna kissed Drake thread. Not even kidding. It's just racial baiting. People fall for it due to so much race related issues in the media at the moment. Find me a black person that has an issue that Madonna vogued 25 years ago, like c'mon its beyond ridiculous. So true. The whole cultural appropriation stuff never comes from the people or culture that are supposed to be offended. So unfair because then they get blamed for it. It is all trouble makers or politically correct wankers who are writing essays etc on it. I work with and know a few of these morons. They are white, university students who get offended for everyone else when the people and culture they are talking about could not care less. I even know a girl who told an English guy off because he called himself a "Pom" and has for 30 years. He lives in Australia but still has a strong English accent. She told him he was racist against English People. Seriously, Some stupid white Australian moron telling an English guy he is racist towards his country of birth. She also is also waffling on about black culture, Indian culture, Asian culture - you name it. She know everything about nothing but does all of these courses - so thinks she knows it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shine Posted May 21, 2015 Author Share Posted May 21, 2015 So true. The whole cultural appropriation stuff never comes from the people or culture that are supposed to be offended. So unfair because then they get blamed for it. It is all trouble makers or politically correct wankers who are writing essays etc on it. I work with and know a few of these morons. They are white, university students who get offended for everyone else when the people and culture they are talking about could not care less. I even know a girl who told an English guy off because he called himself a "Pom" and has for 30 years. He lives in Australia but still has a strong English accent. She told him he was racist against English People. Seriously, Some stupid white Australian moron telling an English guy he is racist towards his country of birth. She also is also waffling on about black culture, Indian culture, Asian culture - you name it. She know everything about nothing but does all of these courses - so thinks she knows it all. or how to perfectly sum up how most the SJW are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macromad Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 There's no such thing as cultural appropiation, it's completely stupid, we're in a globalized world, every culture is adopting elements from others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larkspur Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Why would one reject or object to someone reaching out to something they find interesting or beautiful? Especially if they find something interesting and beautiful about who they are or what they believe or their way of expression. Being able to relate to someone else in one way or the other doesn't mean letting go of your own or their identity. Just speaking about Madonna for a second this is what many people do not understand about her. I am a believer that negative energy will work through anyone to get what it wants and with this it wants division. If you really think about it, it's wanting someone different from yourself to not be a part of your world. That has been the root of division in the world for centuries I believe. People who are upset by what they feel is cultural appropriation need to think about where their feelings are coming from. Do they want division? Are they trying to relieve their own feelings of guilt? Do they want to reject people who they feel have rejected them? Also, do they feel the other person has genuine admiration or love and respect in what they are showing interest in? If so does it still bother them and why? Just throwing questions around;there are no right or wrong answers, just feelings. You cannot take away the person that someone is by wearing what they have worn or believing in what they believe in or falling in love with a dance. The more people try to get together the harder negative energy will have to fight to keep division going and it has no favorites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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