Camacho Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzy Jan Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Not only do we get a new thread, but Hector starts it for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carta Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 I shall repost my last post in here Whatever happened to CUBB? Is anyone in contact with him? At MadonnaTribe, there's a claim now that MDNA didn't come to Australia because Live Nation couldn't sort out all of the details, so it fell through. This is the first time I've heard even a whisper about it being anything other than Madonna's choice not to come here. If it's true, and Live Nation dropped the ball, then that makes me concerned for next year, since it's a 100% Live Nation enterprise, with no outside promoters involved....so if they couldn't make it happen last time, what are they going to do differently this time? Having said that, I actually still believe that Madonna pulled the plug. It doesn't make sense that one of the biggest tour promoters in the world wasn't able to organise an eight-date visit to Australia by one of the biggest stars in history, especially when that star has an exclusive 360 deal with that company. The dates were set. The venues were booked. What did they do? Forget to book the planes to fly the stage here from South America? The big stumbling block next year is the U2 tour. There's no way in the world Guy will want to miss attending either tour, although he's been extremely quiet of late on the Madonna front....maybe she's moving on....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregVsMatt Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Hey Carta, I will tell you what I know from people who were connected to the tour - the Australian cancellation was because Live Nation Australia could not secure financial guarantees for a minimum amount per show. This is what delayed the dates being announced pre-June 2012 and in the end I'm told it was Madonna's decision as it became just too hard to make Australia work at the end of a long tour. I was told had MDNA opened it Australia it would have gone ahead. It was similar to the 2008 plans falling through - simply financial. Guy has been very quiet since and that's because I believe he was burnt by his promises and "It will happen" tweets being thrown back at him on Twitter and in the Australian media as recently as last week. Madonna's apology at the end of the European leg was when she became aware of the negative feedback on social media and felt she needed to respond as after almost 3 months, there was no response from Live Nation, Madonna, Liz or Guy around the cancellation so I believe her recording the message was damage control - unfortunately for her it coincided with the launch day of Material Girl aka Material World fashion line in Australia so again the sincerity was questioned. My personal belief is that if Australia is early in the schedule, it will happen. If not, then here we go again. I think the best approach is, if you can afford it, fly overseas as after 20 years, I can't wait anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
an_mdna_fan Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Matt What do u mean by "Live Nation Australia could not secure financial guarantees for a minimum amount per show,? You mean they did not believe she could fill the venue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregVsMatt Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 It means basically that in order cover the cost of shipping equipment to Australia, venue hire, advertising, insurance and all other costs and turn a profit they needed to guarantee M a minimum amount/profit per night and this couldn't be agreed allegedly - same issue as 2008 and I believe in when venues were booked and just a week before tickets were due to go on sale, Madonna cancelled her plans and decided to end the tour in December which I suspect was a combination of financial, family and also basically to take a break at the end of a gruelling tour. We know M never talks finances so hence the apology focused on family. The gaurantee of a profit per show has always been an issue for Madonna touring Australia which is why the Who's That Girl tour plans never happened and after these negotiations fell through, Aussie promoters negotiated for 5 years to get a tour which was The Girlie Show, negotiations fell through to open the Drowned World Tour in Australia and since then it's been an issue - signing with Live Nation was the closest we've been to getting a tour and if they can't make it happen I'm not sure it ever will. Guy working with U2 could be a good thing as they always tour Australia. It's hard to know how the next tour will be received if she comes to Australia - the biggest challenge will be if hits will be on the setlist after a 20+ year absence and I guess what do you say to a fan base who has given 30 years of support including almost non-stop #1 albums in the last 2 decades, all the promises and the apologies etc when you finally tour. I think S+S was the opportunity to make it up given there was even a second leg and each time she promises and cancels, more casual fans in Australia abandon her. The only way she can guarantee sold out stadium shows is to do a hits tour which is not the next tour so my feeling is we will get an Aussie tour when she is ready to a hits tour and not before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzy Jan Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 I am pretty positive that she would sell out everywhere in Australia if she tours again, regardless of what tour it is. She is still loved here in a big way despite people being upset she has not toured for so long. Madonna is such a superstar that I think she would overcome the broken promises etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregVsMatt Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 I agree an Australian tour would sell very well, this won't be a popular opinion however given casual Australian fans would only know Papa Don't Preach (90 second version) , Express Yourself, Open Your Heart, Justify My Love (remixed) , Vogue (edited) , Human Nature and Like A Prayer along with heavily altered versions of Hung Up and Like A Virgin, I think the MDNA tour would not have gone down well and the reviews would have focused on the MDNA album's brief chart appearance and lack of hits on the setlist after a 2 decade absence. S+S and CT would have gone very well due to the current hits and classic hits mix where as the MDNA tour did not contain any "current hits" as such and while I would have loved the MDNA show, I can just hear my mates slamming it as they did when they saw the DVD. They just didn't get it's brilliance sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 If Niall Urquhart ever comes here he should be banned on arrival. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carta Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Media and casual fans ripped The Girlie Show apart in 1993 for not featuring enough hits. If she did a show featuring nothing but hits, she'd be criticised for relying on former glories and being an irrelevant, heritage act. Matt, it sounds as though you've already decided that she won't be here next year, since she's not doing a GH tour...... I find it interesting that we're only just hearing now, two years down the track, that the Australian leg was cancelled for financial reasons. Do people feel safe talking publicly about details they've heard now, whereas they didn't feel that they could say anything back then? If Live Nation got as close as one week out from putting tickets on sale before Madonna realised that it wasn't going to be viable, then there's something seriously wrong with their business model and their communication with their biggest artist. I dare say any discussion to open The Drowned World Tour here was very brief and limited to a "maybe we could open it in Australia?", since in mid-2001, our dollar was worth less than 50 US cents, and absolutely no one was touring here, because it wasn't financially viable. We were supposed to get The Virgin Tour, but then she exploded in the US and they insisted that she tour there. That was probably our one and only chance to see Madonna in a small venue in Australia. I already know that Madonna will be ripped apart when she tours here next. People will complain about everything they possibly can - they'll complain about the setlist, her voice, the reliance on new material, the fact that she waited over two decades to return here, her diminishing sales, her age, her inappropriate behaviour, her refusal to fawn all over the press and make herself available to be interviewed by every light entertainment show in the country when she arrives, the fact that she wouldn't spend an hour speaking to fans who waited for her at the airport/hotel/venue etc. etc. and the list goes on. While I hope she includes a good range of major hits in her show, I'm not going to let other people's opinions affect my enjoyment what is sure to be nothing short of a major spectacle, in all the right ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzy Jan Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Carta, what city did you see the Girlie show at ? I saw it at the MCG and the crowd seemed to be enthralled throughout. Madonna was definitely going to come here for the Virgin tour because she told Molly Meldrum on the phone on Countdown that she was going to come when he called her all excited about the single Like a Virgin going to number 1. I honestly feel she has nothing against Australia even though she has not toured here since. I hope our media ( we have some of the worst media in the world ) give her some love and respect if she does come back. If Molly Meldrum is up to it, I would love him to interview her. She has often said how much she loves him and I love their rapport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregVsMatt Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Hi Carta, I was told by Warner in 2000 that the tour was to open in Australia and they had been asked to issue a tour edition of Music - which they still released in Australian stores even though the tour plans were cancelled - Warner told me on the phone the tour was cancelled and as I worked at Ticketek from 1994-2000 I called a friend that still worked there and they said the Brisbane Entertainment Centre was booked for 3 night for M and then the tentative booking was cancelled The MDNA tour info was provided to me around 6 months ago and is common knowledge off the record - before that I honestly believed it was purely a personal decision which to me didn't make sense - now it makes sense. And yes, I do believe a tour of Australia is unlikely - part of me still has hope - the rest of me is saving for London Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carta Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 JazzyJan - I saw it in Brisbane and the crowd loved it, but the people they interviewed on TV the next day criticised her Matt - I'm not surprised they abandoned tour plans in 2001, although I'm stunned that they were looking at The Entertainment Centre. Three nights there wouldn't even have come close to matching the numbers she got for one night at ANZ Stadium back in 1993...! You mentioned that they were looking at starting the tour here - so around May 2001? Were Japanese dates pencilled in, because it seems odd that she would do a dozen or so shows here (if she was doing three in Brisbane, she'd do at least four each in Sydney and Melbourne) and then go straight to Europe. I guess they originally planned a much longer tour than it ended up being. "Common knowledge off the record" is an interesting expression to use. How many of us in here shared this "common knowledge"? I'm not having a go at you at all, Matt, so please don't take it that way! I guess it's like the demos and rarities that are passed around between collectors (but never shared with the general population). You have to know and be trusted by the right people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregVsMatt Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 I'm comfortable sharing info I know I can share Carta - it's thanks to people like Hector and MadonnaNation on Twitter that I have become quiet well known by M fans around the world and even people on M's team know of me and of course Madonna Australia. Social media has connected me with people and I am trusted with information at times. It's also my way of connecting as you would understand, being Australian and never involved in touring or events or fan meet-ups can feel isolating - that's why this thread and rare events like the Brisbane Madonna Party are so valuable. On the flipside there are people who give me shit for it along with shit for having a large collection and not flying overseas for the last 5 tours to see M - I think if you live in a city where you see all the tours, it's hard to understand what the Aussie fans go through each time a tour is coming . I do know the fans you mean who have the demos and unreleased photos and for me, it's another form of collecting. I buy physical items while for some fans it's that unreleased song. We benefit only when those fans have a disagreement and demos are leaked out of spite lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivy Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 By the sounds of above, Madonna just sounds like a SCAB, who is too governed by money. I find it difficult to comprehend that every other artist is able to tour Australia, even big productions such as U2 and The Rolling Stones and not Madonna. Hell, even Mick decided to only postpone their tour after his partner committed suicide on the eve of their tour, and will be back in October, and this is at a loss of ten million dollars. Not a bullshit fucking excuse such as my daughter has to study or I'm tired. So fucking what, you are going to make 45 million dollars instead of 52 million. Big fucking deal. Just goes to show how much other artists actually value their aussie fans, where as Madonna really could not give a fuck about her Aussie fans. Hence why she only has a few thousand dedicated fans left in oz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carta Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 I'm comfortable sharing info I know I can share Carta - it's thanks to people like Hector and MadonnaNation on Twitter that I have become quiet well known by M fans around the world and even people on M's team know of me and of course Madonna Australia. Social media has connected me with people and I am trusted with information at times. It's also my way of connecting as you would understand, being Australian and never involved in touring or events or fan meet-ups can feel isolating - that's why this thread and rare events like the Brisbane Madonna Party are so valuable. On the flipside there are people who give me shit for it along with shit for having a large collection and not flying overseas for the last 5 tours to see M - I think if you live in a city where you see all the tours, it's hard to understand what the Aussie fans go through each time a tour is coming . I do know the fans you mean who have the demos and unreleased photos and for me, it's another form of collecting. I buy physical items while for some fans it's that unreleased song. We benefit only when those fans have a disagreement and demos are leaked out of spite lol I understand exactly what you mean, Matt. I've seen you cop it for being a collector and for choosing not to fly overseas to see Madonna, but whose business is it other than yours? You're absolutely right - no one can know what it's like to miss tour after tour unless they've been in that position themselves. As for the demo collectors, it's been a long time since we got any leaks, so I guess they must all be getting along well at the moment (or they're too scared to leak anything after what happened to the guy who leaked GMAYL!). Holding onto something like the official instrumental of "Like A Prayer" just seems petty, though, when the whole album is already out there! I guess they have their reasons I wish I had the time to have a more active online presence, to be honest! I struggle to keep up with this forum, so I admire people who have the time to actually run/maintain a website/Facebook page! Kudos to you, Matt!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 By the sounds of above, Madonna just sounds like a SCAB, who is too governed by money. I find it difficult to comprehend that every other artist is able to tour Australia, even big productions such as U2 and The Rolling Stones and not Madonna. Hell, even Mick decided to only postpone their tour after his partner committed suicide on the eve of their tour, and will be back in October, and this is at a loss of ten million dollars. Not a bullshit fucking excuse such as my daughter has to study or I'm tired. So fucking what, you are going to make 45 million dollars instead of 52 million. Big fucking deal. Just goes to show how much other artists actually value their aussie fans, where as Madonna really could not give a fuck about her Aussie fans. Hence why she only has a few thousand dedicated fans left in oz. Maybe it actually shows how much Madonna values family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzy Jan Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Lets make this thread fun again. Talking about her maybe not touring is too much of a downer. If she tours here again, will she pose with a toy koala like Scarlett did when she was a child promoting the Horse Whisperer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivy Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Maybe it actually shows how much Madonna values family. C'mon now, your an intelligent fella, (except when it comes to supermodels ) it's amazing how she does not miss her daughter for 7 months, what an additional two weeks was really going to hurt? Matt's post makes perfect sense, that it all had to do with Madonna not receiving a guaranteed certain amount of millions per show. That must be really hard for a billionaire such as Madonna. Poor thing would have to live on Vegemite and Damper, instead of organic wheatgrass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivy Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Sorry jazzy, we were posting at same time Had my madonna tour bitch now back on track. Now where is my morning latte? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzy Jan Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Sorry jazzy, we were posting at same time Had my madonna tour bitch now back on track. Now where is my morning latte? You are a morning coffee person. I am the opposite of virtually everyone I know in that I have to have a cup of tea in the morning instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivy Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Who in the world has time to sit down with a cup of tetley it is a large take away venti cafe mocha from Starbucks on the way to school. Helps me stay awake ( which is odd because Australia has just woken up ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carta Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 Ivy - on the way to school? As in uni?? I travel over Christmas almost every year for six weeks for work (during my holidays - yes, I know, I need my head read!). It's intensely draining and every time I head off, I ask myself why I put myself through it. I miss my family, I miss my home, I miss my city and I miss my friends, even though I'm travelling with dozens of awesome people. By the time I reach Week 5, I'm counting the days until I get on that plane to come home. I completely understand why Madonna wouldn't be interested in being home for a few weeks and then heading off again for an additional tour leg. I wouldn't have been surprised if dates for Japan had been announced directly after the Australian dates, and that could have had something to do with her decision. As Matt suggested, it was a combination of factors that led to Madonna pulling the plug on the Australian leg of the tour, with family and exhaustion being two of them. We can't know how important each factor was to her, though. If it had been me, I would probably have just bitten the bullet and gone ahead with the tour, but I'm the fool who gives up his holidays to work with no additional compensation, so don't take much notice of me JazzyJan - I drink neither tea nor coffee! Weird, I know If I really have to (for social reasons), I'll have a tea infused with fruit or vanilla or something, but hot chocolate aside (real, proper Italian hot chocolate), I'm just not a warm beverage type of person Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayofmusic Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 I'm loving all this info about originally proposed tours coming here... And plans being but in place then pulled. I had no idea the DWT was pencilled in to open here, makes sense though she was huge here from beautiful stranger through to Music. And it makes sense now as to why we got a Tour edition of Music Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregVsMatt Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 Ivy, I understand your responses. I believe M and Guy learnt a valuable lesson with the MDNA mess - next time I feel there will be no promises or announcements - just an on sale date when the tour is ready to go on sale. Working in the ticketing industry for 6 years, I knew the extensive delay after the South America dates went on sale meant something was up hence my constant tweets to Guy and messages to Live Nation. Guy has not commented on Australia since Madonna's apology and I know that M's team knows the damage and hurt it caused Australian fans - this was the closest we had been in 20 years to a tour and it was different from the usual "no Australian dates" assumption like the other tours. It's no secret that since the 2006 Confessions Tour snub and apology, Madonna's sales declined - Hard Candy did good based on 4 Minutes and that was M's last Aussie hit single to date. As the media ramped up the "Madonna hates Australia" stories during 2008 and artists like Pink dominated the Aussie touring market, Madonna's popularity has dropped significantly as evidenced by disappointing sales of the Celebration album and MDNA debuting #1 thanks to the remaining fans and then out of the Top 40 in it's 4th week with no hit singles or radio play. Madonna was slaughtered by the Australian media and attacked by fans on Twitter for the cancellation of the tour and at Madonna Australia we've spent the past 18 months connecting the Australian fan base so we can promote any future releases and obviously encourage hope for a tour. Try and let the anger go, Ivy - it's outside our control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 I hesitate to say anything, since I'm a spoiled U.S. resident, and I genuinely feel for the Australian fans who have missed out on many tours in the last two decades since The Girlie Show ... As Matt pointed out, the MDNA Tour was especially damaging/hurtful, because the intention to tour was announced, and then she backed out, which meant people didn't make travel plans early on. So ... believe me, what I'm about to say is in no way meant to criticize any valid feelings Aussie fans might have. I would just remind folks that Madonna's tours are probably the costliest in the business. I don't have any insider information to back that up, but ... you know she has the highest production values ... the most state-of-the-art equipment (largest screen EVER on the last go-round), the best dancers, etc. Sure, U2 has to split their money four ways, but then they don't really have dancers or other band members or back-up singers to pay, etc. I don't expect anyone to feel empathy for her -- I'm sure she'd still make a profit worldwide even if she took a bit of a loss to play Australia. I'm just saying that when it seems like she's "just being greedy" you have to remember that her shows cost a lot to produce and tour. And I know her ticket prices are higher in general -- and she's even gone on record with the very unpopular opinion that she's "worth it" and that her shows are expensive to produce -- but I think it's just important to remind people of that when they are feeling angry. It doesn't excuse anything, but it does factor in -- if you're going to lose time with your family, perhaps you don't also want to be failing to earn anything financially, too. Sorry if this is an unwanted comment. I know Madonna's wealthy. But that still doesn't mean she owes me anything personally, even if I am supporting her by purchasing her music, etc. I've received goods in exchange for my money. I know it's different when she doesn't even come to a continent, but ... travel is travel, regardless. One still has to take time off work -- sometimes at an inconvenient time, because she plays a Tuesday night or whatever. Just because she always comes to the U.S. doesn't mean it's an automatic thing that someone in the U.S. will get to see her, either. MDNA was the first time she'd played a lot of secondary markets in the U.S. in two decades, too. She played Pittsburgh for MDNA, but the last time she was here was the Virgin Tour. (And the Pittsburgh date wasn't rumored or announced until after I'd already bought tickets in another city, because ... I'm just used to having to travel to see her.) Again, I know it's not the same for me to take a flight to NYC or drive to DC in comparison to someone having to fly across oceans to see her. I'm just saying ... we sometimes have to adjust our expectations and adjust our lives if we want to see her. (I know that doesn't work for everyone with job responsibilities, etc. Like Carta, for example. ... if she isn't touring during your summer break from school, I imagine it would be impossible for you to see her. Unless she were in your city, and you could go without missing work.) It's really great that most of the Aussie folks here are still so supportive and love her. How amazing that you're connecting the fan base! I really do hope you get to see her in Australia on the next tour. Again, sorry if this sounds insulting at all. Just trying to offer another perspective to try to help you let go of the anger a little bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 I dare say any discussion to open The Drowned World Tour here was very brief and limited to a "maybe we could open it in Australia?", since in mid-2001, our dollar was worth less than 50 US cents, and absolutely no one was touring here, because it wasn't financially viable. I'm loving all this info about originally proposed tours coming here... And plans being but in place then pulled. I had no idea the DWT was pencilled in to open here, makes sense though she was huge here from beautiful stranger through to Music. And it makes sense now as to why we got a Tour edition of Music That is really curious... I mean, I don't know how the tour could have been ready on time, because it was delayed opening in Spain in June, even, wasn't it? Carta: check your PM box!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregVsMatt Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 Good comments Peter, I personally hold no anger as I know that M and Guy took the feedback and anger from Australian fans on board and from that might come an Australian tour. I'm flying to London next tour and this is because I can't risk being let down again and having being burnt so many times, I won't risk further disappointment. Fans overseas often don't understand and attack Aussie fans as not "real fans" for not flying across the world to see her - that's something I cop a few times a year and the other comment we cop is "stop acting like she owes you a tour" which is just ignorant - if Madonna had no intention of touring, she should never have promised eg in interviews in 1998, 1999, 2000, 2003, 2005 and in the 2006 apology along with Guy's promises on Twitter including his infamous "IT WILL HAPPEN" tweet - this makes Aussie fans believe she will tour and I'm personally happy these promises have stopped and that M wisely didn't promise to tour Australia on the "next tour" in 2012 apology. It is hard being on social media and international forums and a tour announcement for me generally means hours scanning for details, watching clips on YouTube and reading about the amazing experiences of other fans. The MDNA tour was the worst, it's like being told you're being invited to a party and then the invitation never comes and you get told eventually sorry and then you just look at the photos and videos from the party and wonder why you couldn't go. It's tough hey. Until she tours Australia, it will always be a sore point for fans - it seems rejection is not the greatest aphrodisiac in this case lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivy Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 Ivy - on the way to school? As in uni?? I travel over Christmas almost every year for six weeks for work (during my holidays - yes, I know, I need my head read!). It's intensely draining and every time I head off, I ask myself why I put myself through it. I miss my family, I miss my home, I miss my city and I miss my friends, even though I'm travelling with dozens of awesome people. By the time I reach Week 5, I'm counting the days until I get on that plane to come home. I completely understand why Madonna wouldn't be interested in being home for a few weeks and then heading off again for an additional tour leg. I wouldn't have been surprised if dates for Japan had been announced directly after the Australian dates, and that could have had something to do with her decision. As Matt suggested, it was a combination of factors that led to Madonna pulling the plug on the Australian leg of the tour, with family and exhaustion being two of them. We can't know how important each factor was to her, though. If it had been me, I would probably have just bitten the bullet and gone ahead with the tour, but I'm the fool who gives up his holidays to work with no additional compensation, so don't take much notice of me JazzyJan - I drink neither tea nor coffee! Weird, I know If I really have to (for social reasons), I'll have a tea infused with fruit or vanilla or something, but hot chocolate aside (real, proper Italian hot chocolate), I'm just not a warm beverage type of person No, on my way to primary school. I am in grade 4 currently studying the three r's: reading, rhythmatic and riting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivy Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 Oops, and writing posts on Madonnanation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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