Is American Life M's first real Flop Album?

[Rollap]

Erm, sorry but that's not true. MDNA flopped because of a shitty first single and, yes, the lack of proper promotion. But the main reason it flopped was because "Give me All Your Luvin'" is quite possibly her worst single ever.

She had a fantastic opportunity with the Superbowl and huge public anticipation for the first Madonna album in years, and it was all wasted because the song is awful and everyone hated it.

Opinions are like assholes....

Plenty of people I know loved GMAYL. Great tune but the world was already under the rule of GaGa and Rihanna. Madonna is old and digital singles buyers are all teeny boppers. It comes to them all in the end. GGW did far worse.

[Pink Matter]

DAD and AL (spent 2 or 3 week at no.1 on Eurochart) were both hits.

Even "Hollywood" went to no.2 in UK, so it was a hit too.

I was talking about The US, I think the American Life era was her first real flop era/album/single

Dad was a top ten hit but I consider it more a part of the Bond movie than part of the album.

[Icykiller]

Er..NO.

But Nothing Fails and Intervention should have been singles.

AND:

France Platinum^[81] 300,000

I agree with the single choices. Had they marketed the album as Madonna's gone folk, rather than gone political, AL would've had a different fate.

[MPowered]

I hate threads like this. AL was not a flop.. at least to me. I don't give 2-shits about "numbers."

THANK YOU!

I hate that everytime an album era ends these stupid topics come up. It's fucking annoying.

[Phineaspoe]

I'm going to add my vote to the people who say AL is NOT her first flop album.

In the context of M's career, I think that a "first flop" would be an album that didn't match or do better than its predecessor. As I understand it, her album discography went in ascending order of success from Madonna until Like a Prayer. Erotica reversed that trend, doing commercially worse than what had come before it. Thus, it would qualify as Madge's first flop.

Of course, I'm not including quality as part of that definition, since Erotica is undoubtedly one of her masterpieces - and a vital album of the 90s.

But perhaps the reason why some may think of AL as her first or even only real flop is associated with the fact that they ALSO don't see it as an artistic achievement or a vital Madonna album. Those people would also be wrong.

[material_boy]

I'm going to add my vote to the people who say AL is NOT her first flop album.

In the context of M's career, I think that a "first flop" would be an album that didn't match or do better than its predecessor. As I understand it, her album discography went in ascending order of success from Madonna until Like a Prayer. Erotica reversed that trend, doing commercially worse than what had come before it. Thus, it would qualify as Madge's first flop.

Actually, "Like a Prayer" was her first full-length album to undersell its predecessor. "LAP" sold an estimated 15 million copies worldwide, while "True Blue" sold an estimated 25 million.

[Phineaspoe]

Actually, "Like a Prayer" was her first full-length album to undersell its predecessor. "LAP" sold an estimated 15 million copies worldwide, while "True Blue" sold an estimated 25 million.

Ooh, interesting - we went from 25m to 15m, and then with Erotica down to 6m. LAP, though, spun two of the biggest hits of her career - then and now. The contrast still makes me want to call Erotica her first "commercial flop." Would you call LAP her first flop?

[material_boy]

Ooh, interesting - we went from 25m to 15m, and then with Erotica down to 6m. LAP, though, spun two of the biggest hits of her career - then and now. The contrast still makes me want to call Erotica her first "commercial flop." Would you call LAP her first flop?

No, I wouldn't call "LAP" a flop -- not even close. It couldn't match the mammoth sales of "Like a Virgin" or "True Blue," but it was still one of the biggest sellers of 1989 and one of the most acclaimed albums of the year. It also produced three of the biggest singles of her career, and a couple minor hits as well. There is no measure by which "LAP" could be considered a flop.

"Erotica" saw much weaker sales and garnered less acclaim.

"American Life" saw much weaker sales and garnered far less acclaim.

I'd say that, in terms of commercial expectations, "Erotica" was her first flop. Madonna was seen as an ATM machine entering the 90s -- four massive hit albums, hit movies, massive tours, even her documentary went on to make money hand over first. ("Truth or Dare" set records for highest-grossing documentary of all time, a distinction it held for decades after its release.)

It all culminated, of course, with Blond Ambition and "The Immaculate Collection," which was a huge seller that Christmas and produced yet another number one single. Her contract ended with "TIC" and Warner, desperate to keep her, offered her the biggest record deal in history (at the time) and agreed to underwrite a new record label for her and her business partners to run.

Expectations were astronomically high. "Erotica" couldn't have been a bigger disappointment if she tried.

So, yeah, if the question is "first flop," it has to be "Erotica." But I'd say that "American Life" was a bigger flop. Her career never really bounced back from "American Life." The decade since 2003 is the first period of her career where hits have been the exception and not the rule.

I think this article is spot on with regard to the disappointments of her third decade and, in retrospect, explains why "American Life" should be regarded as a much harder flop than "Erotica."

[Guest bluejean]

I think the difference between Erotica and AL is that with Erotica everyone was still talking about her yet with American Life it was basically a non event.

[Jazzy Jan]

My head is now officially spinning. Did someone actually suggest Like a Prayer was a flop ? Erotica and AL sold less than usual and were rocked by backlashes and controversies but I still don't consider them flops. Both brilliant albums and sales are not the be all and end all.

[Phineaspoe]

My head is now officially spinning. Did someone actually suggest Like a Prayer was a flop ? Erotica and AL sold less than usual and were rocked by backlashes and controversies but I still don't consider them flops. Both brilliant albums and sales are not the be all and end all.

Hi, and to answer your question, no. No one suggested LAP was a flop, but I did ask the question to material_boy to see if we could all start agreeing on something. I claimed Erotica had reversed the trend of every M album outperforming the previous one up to that point in her career, and material_boy provided a fact that denied my claim (LAP actually sold less than True Blue). Given my definition of a "first flop" - the first M album to NOT outperform the previous ones – it seemed that then LAP could be considered her first flop. Of course, we know that's impossible and ridiculous. By any standard, LAP was/is a huge success.

So maybe we can all be on the same page at least about one thing: a "first flop" cannot be JUST that a Madonna album did "commercially worse" than her predecessors. There has to be something else that makes it a flop in someone's eyes. That's what's up for debate: Is it a lack of big hits? Lack of media attention? Lack of cultural impact? Lack of great songs? None of these things? All of them?

Based on the answers to those question, you can decide whether you think Erotica is her first flop or not. For example, you seem to be saying no Madonna album is a flop because there's always been something that redeems them.

[Guest sambassile]

So, yeah, if the question is "first flop," it has to be "Erotica." But I'd say that "American Life" was a bigger flop. Her career never really bounced back from "American Life." The decade since 2003 is the first period of her career where hits have been the exception and not the rule.

Her career made the biggest U turn with Confessions on a Dancefloor couple of years after AL. She was the media darling during that era, with amazing sales, massive hits and a record breaking tour. Yes she did go dry on hits in America but I'd attribute that mainly to her age and not necessarily the American Life project. I still believe that Madonna could score few more hit singles with the right songs.

[Jazzy Jan]

Thanks Phineaspoe, understand exactly what you are saying now.

I think I love her albums so much that it is hard to even comprehend calling them flops. Will leave that debate to others here.

[Guest bluejean]

There are Gaga fans out there that claim Artpop isn't a flop. So you know. It's very subjective.

[Ivy]

Could: You Can Dance be considered Madonnas first flop. It only sold a pittance, FLOP!

[material_boy]

Her career made the biggest U turn with Confessions on a Dancefloor couple of years after AL. She was the media darling during that era, with amazing sales, massive hits and a record breaking tour. Yes she did go dry on hits in America but I'd attribute that mainly to her age and not necessarily the American Life project. I still believe that Madonna could score few more hit singles with the right songs.

I disagree.

Look at her career on the whole since 2003:

• Four albums, with just one major international hit ("Confessions)
• 14 or so singles, with just two major international hits ("Hung Up," "4 Minutes") and a few hits in specific markets (i.e. the remaining "Confessions" era singles in Europe)

I'm not saying that everything has been a failure since 2003 -- I'm saying that this is the first time decade of her career where flops outnumber hits. It's hard to look at the arc of her career and not trace her current sales difficulties back to "American Life."

I think bluejean said it best:

I think the difference between Erotica and AL is that with Erotica everyone was still talking about her yet with American Life it was basically a non event.

"Erotica" was a flop -- it's hard to deny that, considering the expectations it had at the time. But it was still heralded as an ambitious project. In fact, it's main criticism was that it was too ambitious and that it went too far in pushing the envelope.

"American Life" was a bigger flop because not only did it fail to sell but because it it also recast Madonna as a has-been in the eyes of many. (Especially the media.) She's never recovered from the "washed up" charge. If anything, her retreat to an all-dance album, then to Timabland, then to Nikki Minaj only seemed to reinforce the idea that she didn't have any more original ideas to offer.

[Kurt420]

In fairness, a segment of people have been calling her washed up since Erotica. To me, that was the first big shift in her career......and it had to happen for a number of reasons. She was at a peak of celebrity that few had experienced, "golden ages" like that ('84-'92) can only last for so long for artists....Beatles, Elvis, Michael.....all of them had their "golden age" and none of those periods lasted 30 years. Erotica was the first time she was truly experimental with her music. Compared to her IC era hits, Erotica was a bitter pill to swallow for the casual pop music fan. It really is another thread, but we could really sit here and discuss how her career never fully bounced back from the Erotica era. The "flops" became more frequent, on average the album sales slid and she never QUITE regained that untouchable momentum she had pre-Sex.

The AL era was simply another one of those inevitable shifts in her career. She has since released plenty of fantastic, radio friendly singles but US radio just won't give her the time of day anymore for the most part. I don't think it's BECAUSE of AL, that was just the start of the "next era" of her career. Her age was an inevitable factor that was going to effect her commercial viability at some point and AL was the first time that was blatantly obvious, then of course there is the fact that there are NO radio friendly singles on AL itself.

[Plaything]

I fail to see how tracks like Love Profusion or Nothing Fails were not radio friendly. They are catchy as hell and most of the stuff on AL doesn't sound that different (sonically) to the stuff on Music which ironically was a smash. I always look at Music/AL as some kind of double album that never was.

There are many reasons why this flopped compared to her other albums (AL video controversy, AL song not connecting with the general public and people expecting a completely new sound, the lyrics, messy campaign throughout 2003, her age and so on) but the songs itself certainly weren't one of the main reasons IMO.

[Guest bluejean]

I fail to see how tracks like Love Profusion or Nothing Fails were not radio friendly. They are catchy as hell and most of the stuff on AL doesn't sound that different (sonically) to the stuff on Music which ironically was a smash. I always look at Music/AL as some kind of double album that never was.

There are many reasons why this flopped compared to her other albums (AL video controversy, AL song not connecting with the general public and people expecting a completely new sound, the lyrics, messy campaign throughout 2003, her age and so on) but the songs itself certainly weren't one of the main reasons IMO.

I disagree. American Life had some catchy, radio friendly songs but unlike Music or Confessions did not have an obvious mega lead single. It was definitely lacking commercial appeal for that reason.

[Guest bluejean]

I fail to see how tracks like Love Profusion or Nothing Fails were not radio friendly. They are catchy as hell and most of the stuff on AL doesn't sound that different (sonically) to the stuff on Music which ironically was a smash. I always look at Music/AL as some kind of double album that never was.

There are many reasons why this flopped compared to her other albums (AL video controversy, AL song not connecting with the general public and people expecting a completely new sound, the lyrics, messy campaign throughout 2003, her age and so on) but the songs itself certainly weren't one of the main reasons IMO.

I disagree. American Life had some catchy, radio friendly songs but unlike Music or Confessions did not have an obvious mega lead single. It was definitely lacking commercial appeal for that reason.

[material_boy]

I fail to see how tracks like Love Profusion or Nothing Fails were not radio friendly. They are catchy as hell and most of the stuff on AL doesn't sound that different (sonically) to the stuff on Music which ironically was a smash. I always look at Music/AL as some kind of double album that never was.

There are many reasons why this flopped compared to her other albums (AL video controversy, AL song not connecting with the general public and people expecting a completely new sound, the lyrics, messy campaign throughout 2003, her age and so on) but the songs itself certainly weren't one of the main reasons IMO.

I completely agree on one point: It's bunk to say that the album had nothing to offer radio. "Love Profusion," "Nothing Fails," and most especially "Intervention" would have been embraced by radio if they had led off the album.

As for your comparison of "Music" and "American Life," I'd argue that they're more like two sides of the same coin than they are a double album.

On "Music," Mirwais used electronica to accentuate the acoustic and organic elements of the album, from Madonna's voice on the title track to the acoustic guitar on "Don't Tell Me." The line is most blurred on "Impressive Instant," on which he is constantly distorting Madonna's voice to such effect that it is, at times, indecipherable from the sounds around it.

On "American Life," he juxtaposes the electronic from the acoustic and organic. The squelches of the title track's verses and bridge cut out immediately as Madonna launches into an acoustic chorus. He repeats this exact dynamic for "Hollywood" and inverts it for "Easy Ride." Meanwhile, the rest of the album is almost perfectly divided between straight-electronica ("Nobody Knows Me") and straight-acoustic ("X-Static Process").

"Music" was at its release -- and is still today -- acclaimed for blurring the line between electronic and acoustic while "American Life" was criticized in its time for jarring the listener. (Many critics seemed to miss that this was, in fact, what Madonna and Mirwais were trying to do.)

I say all this because I think this is the reason "American Life" (the single and album) failed -- not the video or expectations or anything else.

Madonna and Mirwais set out to make an album that challenged the listener in exactly the opposite way that "Music" challenged the listener -- and, to her, it probably made perfect sense to lead such a project with the song on which this new dynamic is most aggressive. That she tried to sear an anti-war message on top of such an album during a time of extreme nationalism was simply the nail in the coffin of this project.

If things had gone differently -- if she'd led off with something easier on the ears, like "Intervention," while also being less political in her album art and public message, then the project likely would have been a much greater success commercially. But it probably would still have been quite divisive critically.

[Larkspur]

Madonna and Mirwais set out to make an album that challenged the listener in exactly the opposite way that "Music" challenged the listener -- and, to her, it probably made perfect sense to lead such a project with the song on which this new dynamic is most aggressive. That she tried to sear an anti-war message on top of such an album during a time of extreme nationalism was simply the nail in the coffin of this project.

If things had gone differently -- if she'd led off with something easier on the ears, like "Intervention," while also being less political in her album art and public message, then the project likely would have been a much greater success commercially. But it probably would still have been quite divisive critically.

I agree with you for the reasons she led with American Life. I agree that the mood of Americans affected the acceptance of American Life but more so for criticism which would only be accepted from a more reflective voice. I agree with the idea of Intervention leading American Life as possibly something that would have been given the time by radio or the general public. Americans at the time were quietly reflecting on the way the world sees them and wanting to learn more about why others think as they do but not something more critical although its so needed. American Life may have been a little before it's time.

I don't know about flops. I never really paid attention to chart positions or sales. I guessed based on whatever criteria a person considers a flop. As mentioned above Erotica sold less than Like A Prayer but that period of time when that album came out was a wonderful one for me as a fan of Madonna. She stood behind Erotica but honestly I didn't feel she stood behind American Life so for me personally that would describe a flop. That's only based on my perception of what Madonna thought at the time. I love American Life. The album itself is beautiful. What turned me off at the time was what felt like Madonna not backing up her album. I think if she did more fans would discover what a great album it actually is. I don't think its flawless but its better than has been given credit.

What you think about your own work and yourself for that matter affects what others think and I thought Madonna had turned away from what she was trying to say with pulling the video and the Reinvention tour and even Confessions for that matter. Still love the Reinvention tour and love Confessions now but I have to say of all the Madonna eras I have gone through that was the most traumatizing. I was shaken a little bit but I still loved her though! Always.

[material_boy]

Americans at the time were quietly reflecting on the way the world sees them and wanting to learn more about why others think as they do but not something more critical although its so needed. American Life may have been a little before it's time.

What's surprising to me, in retrospect, is how close she came to being on the money with this album politically.

Spring of 2003 was too early -- the Bush war machine had revved Americans into a nationalist frenzy and bullied much of the rest of the world into submission.

But as the war unraveled later that year, anti-war sentiment spilled into the American mainstream. Howard Dean's anti-war campaign briefly made him the favorite for the White House, Bush's approval rating tanked, and Americans went from near-unanimous war support to a starkly divided country.

If "American Life" had been released just a few months later -- say, fall 2003 -- then a more political album may have captured people's imaginations. (Though she probably would still have been routinely mocked for the awful rap and the aggressive acoustic-electric juxtaposition may still have rubbed too many the wrong way to ever be popular.)

[BoyToy]

I get a double shot-te

Enough said

[IsaacHarris]

I wonder if Brahim's dick FLOPS to the left or right when he whips it out. That's the real hard hitting question.

[BoyToy]

Flops in my arse

[Plaything]

I completely agree on one point: It's bunk to say that the album had nothing to offer radio. "Love Profusion," "Nothing Fails," and most especially "Intervention" would have been embraced by radio if they had led off the album.

As for your comparison of "Music" and "American Life," I'd argue that they're more like two sides of the same coin than they are a double album.

On "Music," Mirwais used electronica to accentuate the acoustic and organic elements of the album, from Madonna's voice on the title track to the acoustic guitar on "Don't Tell Me." The line is most blurred on "Impressive Instant," on which he is constantly distorting Madonna's voice to such effect that it is, at times, indecipherable from the sounds around it.

On "American Life," he juxtaposes the electronic from the acoustic and organic. The squelches of the title track's verses and bridge cut out immediately as Madonna launches into an acoustic chorus. He repeats this exact dynamic for "Hollywood" and inverts it for "Easy Ride." Meanwhile, the rest of the album is almost perfectly divided between straight-electronica ("Nobody Knows Me") and straight-acoustic ("X-Static Process").

"Music" was at its release -- and is still today -- acclaimed for blurring the line between electronic and acoustic while "American Life" was criticized in its time for jarring the listener. (Many critics seemed to miss that this was, in fact, what Madonna and Mirwais were trying to do.)

I say all this because I think this is the reason "American Life" (the single and album) failed -- not the video or expectations or anything else.

Madonna and Mirwais set out to make an album that challenged the listener in exactly the opposite way that "Music" challenged the listener -- and, to her, it probably made perfect sense to lead such a project with the song on which this new dynamic is most aggressive. That she tried to sear an anti-war message on top of such an album during a time of extreme nationalism was simply the nail in the coffin of this project.

If things had gone differently -- if she'd led off with something easier on the ears, like "Intervention," while also being less political in her album art and public message, then the project likely would have been a much greater success commercially. But it probably would still have been quite divisive critically.

Good post! I like your description about both albums and to be honest I have never thought about it that way but you do have a point. However I think that the general public simply thought "Ugh Madonna is still doing this crazy electro thing" and were kind of fed up with it. When I said that I feel that both albums belong together, I meant that you could nicely put all pure electronic tracks on a CD1 and all acoustic songs on CD2 and you would have a pretty cool double album. The songs are not that different from each other even though they are produced in a different way as you said.

[dollhouse]

I agree with the single choices. Had they marketed the album as Madonna's gone folk, rather than gone political, AL would've had a different fate.

exactly, and Dont Tell Me was a huge hit in the USA. Why didnt she continue with similar sound?

[dollhouse]

I'm going to add my vote to the people who say AL is NOT her first flop album.

In the context of M's career, I think that a "first flop" would be an album that didn't match or do better than its predecessor. As I understand it, her album discography went in ascending order of success from Madonna until Like a Prayer. Erotica reversed that trend, doing commercially worse than what had come before it. Thus, it would qualify as Madge's first flop.

Of course, I'm not including quality as part of that definition, since Erotica is undoubtedly one of her masterpieces - and a vital album of the 90s.

But perhaps the reason why some may think of AL as her first or even only real flop is associated with the fact that they ALSO don't see it as an artistic achievement or a vital Madonna album. Those people would also be wrong.

Well, Like A Prayer did worse than True Blue. In fact, sales were disapointing in the USA.

So, LAP is her first true FLOP?

[Guest]

Most of the people claiming it's a flop have done fuck all with their lives. So they can go belly flop into a tar pit for all I care.