Secret Project

[Guest]

Again though if this is only a magazine why did we get that early pic of the secret project where it showed a room with tracks to run a video camera on the ground? Do photoshoots alone have those?

If its an online publication, then it could easily have embedded video. I'm not saying I'm right about any of my speculations, btw... Just seems like the whole "#secretproject" tag at the end of the video teaser was indicative of the name of the whole thing.

[ryan]

Steven Klein films all his shoots.

[adreeyen]

It's a film y'all, I thought we went over this.

[Love Spent]

He's being so annoying on twitter, making it seem like the most painful birth ever, just to release those few seconds of... nothing

Yes!

[Guest]

It's a film y'all, I thought we went over this.

[debord]

Sorry Jazzyjan, but you obviously aren't up with what's happening in Syria, where Obama (with help from the EU and my own country the UK) is funding those VERY people you talk about, with ALL those views, to kill, maim and terrorise the people in that country. Who is worse, the psychos who believe in this stuff, or the person who cynically uses them to destabilise a country by giving them weapons and training and telling them to go forth and conquer?

This, exactly. If you 'don't want to understand' then it's no surprise that you don't understand that the United States' foreign policy has directly supported these people when it suits (and in FULL AWARENESS of what they are doing), just as the USA supported Bin Laden, and Saddam Hussein and has overthrown countless governments which they have replaced with brutal dictatorships.

It's depressing that stating these truths is presented as being 'depressing' and seen as worthy of mockery. Being a Madonna fan for me has never been about unquestioning, banal praise - that's the opposite of what she's about. As she herself said, " I'm interested in pushing people's buttons and being provocative and political". You can't be 'provocative' if you only say things which everyone already thinks is acceptable. If your only response to serious discussion of politics is insults, you've completely missed the central point of Madonna's career.

[Guest]

This, exactly. If you 'don't want to understand' then it's no surprise that you don't understand that the United States' foreign policy has directly supported these people when it suits (and in FULL AWARENESS of what they are doing), just as the USA supported Bin Laden, and Saddam Hussein and has overthrown countless governments which they have replaced with brutal dictatorships.

It's depressing that stating these truths is presented as being 'depressing' and seen as worthy of mockery. Being a Madonna fan for me has never been about unquestioning, banal praise - that's the opposite of what she's about. As she herself said, " I'm interested in pushing people's buttons and being provocative and political". You can't be 'provocative' if you only say things which everyone already thinks is acceptable. If your only response to serious discussion of politics is insults, you've completely missed the central point of Madonna's career.

Look, it's quite clear that I'm not sympathetic to the US government. However, I am sympathetic to the cause that Madonna is talking about. Notice that Madonna is bringing up individual issues rather than making it UNITED STATES VERSUS THE MUSLIMS. As usual however, there is ALWAYS somebody there to do that for her. Madonna stated ten years ago that she wasn't anti war but pro peace. I fully believed that then and do now. Her cause is worth supporting, the positive message alone. It seems unnecessary to me to bring up the obvious hypocrisy of the US government, a body which Madonna has NO involvement with.

[Guest]

[debord]

Look, it's quite clear that I'm not sympathetic to the US government. However, I am sympathetic to the cause that Madonna is talking about. Notice that Madonna is bringing up individual issues rather than making it UNITED STATES VERSUS THE MUSLIMS. As usual however, there is ALWAYS somebody there to do that for her. Madonna stated ten years ago that she wasn't anti war but pro peace. I fully believed that then and do now. Her cause is worth supporting, the positive message alone. It seems unnecessary to me to bring up the obvious hypocrisy of the US government, a body which Madonna has NO involvement with.

Why is it 'unnecessary' to bring up the US government when its actions and influence in the world are directly responsible for so much of what Madonna is speaking about? And she actively campaigned for Obama and has continued to support him on the world stage, that is 'involvement'.

It seems to me that many here are only willing to go with this as long as it doesn't raise any uncomfortable questions re: Madonna herself. I'm secure enough in my fandom to not worry about that.

[Glindathegood]

Madonna never said the US government was perfect and never does anything wrong and is always on the right side of issues. In her speech, she said America is the home of the brave and the free? That's a question, not a statement.

But as someone else said, she is addressing individual issues of free speech, bigotry etc, not issues of foreign policy. So she is political more in a humanist sense than the traditional way of economic or foreign policy.

It also seems to me some of this discussion of US foreign policy is out of the scope of this thread about the Secret Project. If people want to debate US foreign policy in the Middle East, can't they discuss that in the Politics section of the forum? It seems off the topic of Madonna specifically.

[debord]

Madonna never said the US government was perfect and never does anything wrong and is always on the right side of issues. In her speech, she said America is the home of the brave and the free? That's a question, not a statement.

But as someone else said, she is addressing individual issues of free speech, bigotry etc, not issues of foreign policy. So she is political more in a humanist sense than the traditional way of economic or foreign policy.

It also seems to me some of this discussion of US foreign policy is out of the scope of this thread about the Secret Project. If people want to debate US foreign policy in the Middle East, can't they discuss that in the Politics section of the forum? It seems off the topic of Madonna specifically.

You don't think speaking about Iran or the Taliban has anything to do with American foreign policy?

Issues of 'free speech' and 'bigotry' are not apolitical ones which exist without context. It's impossible to be 'political' outwith the realms of global politics - saying 'free speech is good!' is utterly meaningless without looking at the structures and power behind it and the way in which it is exercised. And sorry, but if people get so het up at a couple of folk on a Madonna forum raising these issues, if Madonna is indeed going down this road then you haven't seen anything yet.

[Guest]

Why is it 'unnecessary' to bring up the US government when its actions and influence in the world are directly responsible for so much of what Madonna is speaking about? And she actively campaigned for Obama and has continued to support him on the world stage, that is 'involvement'.

It seems to me that many here are only willing to go with this as long as it doesn't raise any uncomfortable questions re: Madonna herself. I'm secure enough in my fandom to not worry about that.

Don't be silly. My point is NOT that US government is perfect. I mean, the fact that I'm banned from the politics section should speak for itself. My point is that Madonna is not campaigning against a government or providing that the US government is perfect. She is referring to individual atrocities in order to try to activate some change. I am personally annoyed at the fact that David Cameron is a better politician than Obama and yet because he's not 'liberal' (or superficially representing change) he isn't given respect by the same people blowing their horns for Obama. So I'm not protecting the US government or asking for people to ignore its downfalls. Instead I'm suggesting that people don't push their own political gender onto a cause for which it isn't appropriate. Do you understand that? I think it's clearly that Madonna has always had the back of women and gay men but I'm sure she would step into any situation of mistreatment which she felt she could improve.

[Guest]

You don't think speaking about Iran or the Taliban has anything to do with American foreign policy?

I notice you and Lucky Guy didn't mention what she said about Russia...strange that. Also not mentioning the fact that she CLEARLY criticised America in her speech. You really have the blinkers on.

[debord]

Don't be silly. My point is NOT that US government is perfect. I mean, the fact that I'm banned from the politics section should speak for itself. My point is that Madonna is not campaigning against a government or providing that the US government is perfect. She is referring to individual atrocities in order to try to activate some change. I am personally annoyed at the fact that David Cameron is a better politician than Obama and yet because he's not 'liberal' (or superficially representing change) he isn't given respect by the same people blowing their horns for Obama. So I'm not protecting the US government or asking for people to ignore its downfalls. Instead I'm suggesting that people don't push their own political gender onto a cause for which it isn't appropriate. Do you understand that? I think it's clearly that Madonna has always had the back of women and gay men but I'm sure she would step into any situation of mistreatment which she felt she could improve.

It's very easy for me. The fundamental question is, would you care about any of this if Madonna wasn't speaking about it? If the answer is no then fair enough, but don't speak about it at all then, because these issues are too important to be used as tools of shrieking fandom. If the answer is yes, then you realise that they are bigger and more important than Madonna as an individual is, and you will realise that they are complex and you can't restrict discussion of them because of what Madonna has chosen to speak about. You can say 'Madonna only wants to force change in Iran etc' until the cows come home - it doesn't alter the fact that the United States is both complicit in and responsible for many of these things and they won't begin to change until people realise that. Without that, it's just an embarrassing vanity project.

And David Cameron is vile.

[debord]

I notice you and Lucky Guy didn't mention what she said about Russia...strange that. Also not mentioning the fact that she CLEARLY criticised America in her speech. You really have the blinkers on.

Um... I did. I spoke at length about Pussy Riot and Bradley Manning in the GLAAD thread, for which I was subjected to a bunch of insults.

She criticised religious bigotry in America. That plays quite nicely into the 'Democrats are nice and sane, Republicans are lunatics' narrative which everyone listening to that speech wants to hear. Nice but nothing that will change anything. It actually makes me wonder if she'd oppose war with Iran if Obama went there, or if it's only bad if it's a Republican President.

[Guest]

It's very easy for me. The fundamental question is, would you care about any of this if Madonna wasn't speaking about it? If the answer is no then fair enough, but don't speak about it at all then, because these issues are too important to be used as tools of shrieking fandom. If the answer is yes, then you realise that they are bigger and more important than Madonna as an individual is, and you will realise that they are complex and you can't restrict discussion of them because of what Madonna has chosen to speak about. You can say 'Madonna only wants to force change in Iran etc' until the cows come home - it doesn't alter the fact that the United States is both complicit in and responsible for many of these things and they won't begin to change until people realise that. Without that, it's just an embarrassing vanity project.

And David Cameron is vile.

First of all, I am friends with actual Iranian people. Real life Persians okay, and I'm not some kind of white supremacist looking to rid the world of cultural differences. So don't patronise me. Second of all I have always been interested in issues of equality alongside individual prosperity. I believe that you give what you get. If a woman gives her heart, soul and intelligence to something then she should be able to ACHIEVE in the same way that a man can. This is the cause Madonna is fighting. I mean, you keep asking about what Madonna wants but I'm not sure you have any idea. I ALSO NEVER SAID SHE WANTS TO MAKE CHANGE ONLY IN IRAN. I said that she discussed individual circumstances. She's clearly not trying to bring about a political utopia but she has repeatedly brought forward her wish for lack of judgement. She's an American with catholic heritage, living a Jewish religion and dating a practising Muslim. I believe in God and my family heritage is Catholic yet I can actually discuss and support my friends Muslim religion without judgement.

These issues may be bigger than Madonna but as somebody who I assume has an interest in politics you surely realise how somebody with a high profile can be either promotion or caveat of any cause. Right? Should she do a Kylie Minogue and appear empty instead? Madonna IS the issue here. We're discussing her project. I am trying to make this very basic point clear for your understanding. I AM NOT SAYING THAT THE HYPOCRISY OF THE US GOVERNMENT AND IT'S FOREIGN PATRONS SHOULD NOT BE DISCUSSED. I AM SAYING IT IS NOT RELEVANT TO THE CAUSE WHICH MADONNA IS FRONTING. Madonna has tried to 'wake Americans up' but knows deep down that an artist totally out of favour has NO SAY AT ALL. I am happy to otherwise discuss these OTHER issues with you so you can either make a thread in the lounge or PM me. I am so bored of this talk of the middle east versus America because I'm not willing to choose either side. It's obvious I detest American economic and political actions which sometimes take place worldwide but I'm not a mindless hater. Why am I not surprised that you find David Cameron vile? It's sad, really. Your mind is probably more trapped than those you are so quick to wish an expungement of value onto.

Anyway, I hold great positive hope for this project. I work and socialise with some very intelligent/wonderful women who are looked down upon and worse some who are so weak they allow it.

[Guest]

Um... I did. I spoke at length about Pussy Riot and Bradley Manning in the GLAAD thread, for which I was subjected to a bunch of insults.

She criticised religious bigotry in America. That plays quite nicely into the 'Democrats are nice and sane, Republicans are lunatics' narrative which everyone listening to that speech wants to hear. Nice but nothing that will change anything. It actually makes me wonder if she'd oppose war with Iran if Obama went there, or if it's only bad if it's a Republican President.

You call yourself a Madonna fan but I fail to understand how that can be possible. It feels like you've not witnessed so many things which she has done. American politics is shit. The two party system is ultimately flawed and even in human psychology it's well understood that binary choices create a sense of loss no matter the result. The perfect number is three. Madonna supported who she thought more suited. Most Americans I know talk about the lesser of two evils and unfortunately for them that's the way it is. Madonna isn't pitting democrats against Muslims. What are you on? She also criticised the American PEOPLE who forget to give their opinion and enact their bravery. Did you miss that? I don't think Madonna is the sort of person that would support any war.

[debord]

First of all, I am friends with actual Iranian people. Real life Persians okay, and I'm not some kind of white supremacist looking to rid the world of cultural differences. So don't patronise me. Second of all I have always been interested in issues of equality alongside individual prosperity. I believe that you give what you get. If a woman gives her heart, soul and intelligence to something then she should be able to ACHIEVE in the same way that a man can. This is the cause Madonna is fighting. I mean, you keep asking about what Madonna wants but I'm not sure you have any idea. I ALSO NEVER SAID SHE WANTS TO MAKE CHANGE ONLY IN IRAN. I said that she discussed individual circumstances. She's clearly not trying to bring about a political utopia but she has repeatedly brought forward her wish for lack of judgement. She's an American with catholic heritage, living a Jewish religion and dating a practising Muslim. I believe in God and my family heritage is Catholic yet I can actually discuss and support my friends Muslim religion without judgement.

These issues may be bigger than Madonna but as somebody who I assume has an interest in politics you surely realise how somebody with a high profile can be either promotion or caveat of any cause. Right? Should she do a Kylie Minogue and appear empty instead? Madonna IS the issue here. We're discussing her project. I am trying to make this very basic point clear for your understanding. I AM NOT SAYING THAT THE HYPOCRISY OF THE US GOVERNMENT AND IT'S FOREIGN PATRONS SHOULD NOT BE DISCUSSED. I AM SAYING IT IS NOT RELEVANT TO THE CAUSE WHICH MADONNA IS FRONTING. Madonna has tried to 'wake Americans up' but knows deep down that an artist totally out of favour has NO SAY AT ALL. I am happy to otherwise discuss these OTHER issues with you so you can either make a thread in the lounge or PM me. I am so bored of this talk of the middle east versus America because I'm not willing to choose either side. It's obvious I detest American economic and political actions which sometimes take place worldwide but I'm not a mindless hater. Why am I not surprised that you find David Cameron vile? It's sad, really. Your mind is probably more trapped than those you are so quick to wish an expungement of value onto.

Anyway, I hold great positive hope for this project. I work and socialise with some very intelligent/wonderful women who are looked down upon and worse some who are so weak they allow it.

Eh? What's knowing Iranians and Persians got to do with anything?!

As for my mind being 'trapped' because I think a deeply reactionary Prime Minister who is increasing poverty, increasing inequality and trying to destroy the welfare state is 'vile'....oh dear.

I've said nowhere that I have a problem with Madonna being political. In fact I've said the opposite. As I've also said, however, being political doesn't mean you get to choose which issues people are 'allowed' to discuss and it certainly doesn't mean that your fans should blindly accept what you say. That's not thinking, that's a cult.

Look at it this way - if Madonna gave a speech about tackling violence in the world, or tackling inequality in the world, pretty much everyone aside from her most inane fans would respond "hey, shouldn't you deal with these things on your own doorstep first?" It's the exact same here.

[Camacho]

[debord]

You call yourself a Madonna fan but I fail to understand how that can be possible. It feels like you've not witnessed so many things which she has done. American politics is shit. The two party system is ultimately flawed and even in human psychology it's well understood that binary choices create a sense of loss no matter the result. The perfect number is three. Madonna supported who she thought more suited. Most Americans I know talk about the lesser of two evils and unfortunately for them that's the way it is. Madonna isn't pitting democrats against Muslims. What are you on? She also criticised the American PEOPLE who forget to give their opinion and enact their bravery. Did you miss that? I don't think Madonna is the sort of person that would support any war.

Given that Madonna is all about making people think, I'm happy that I'm more of a Madonna fan than many who seem to shriek in pain if she's seen as being criticised in any way and think issues which existed long before and will exist long after her should be dictated by what she says.

Her 'question' about America was quite clearly about religious bigotry and Americans who don't speak out about the things she'd spoken about (abroad). The rest of the speech makes that very obvious. There is nothing in there whatsoever which suggests otherwise and her statements about America in her recent concerts make it clear that she does indeed consider it to be a land of 'free speech' and 'liberty'.

I have no idea if Madonna would support another war or not. There have obviously been many wars both before and after Iraq which she said nothing about. I'm pleased she spoke up about Iraq at the time but disappointed that she decides to make statements demonising Iran at exactly the time that many are pushing for war. There have been several studies which showed that coverage and discussion of Iraq's human rights violations increased exponentially in the run-up to the Iraq war in efforts to convince people it was right - the exact same thing is now happening with Iran. Would she have mentioned Iran if she'd given the speech 5 years ago? Frankly, I doubt it.

[Guest]

Eh? What's knowing Iranians and Persians got to do with anything?!

As for my mind being 'trapped' because I think a deeply reactionary Prime Minister who is increasing poverty, increasing inequality and trying to destroy the welfare state is 'vile'....oh dear.

I've said nowhere that I have a problem with Madonna being political. In fact I've said the opposite. As I've also said, however, being political doesn't mean you get to choose which issues people are 'allowed' to discuss and it certainly doesn't mean that your fans should blindly accept what you say. That's not thinking, that's a cult.

Look at it this way - if Madonna gave a speech about tackling violence in the world, or tackling inequality in the world, pretty much everyone aside from her most inane fans would respond "hey, shouldn't you deal with these things on your own doorstep first?" It's the exact same here.

The relevance of my Persian friends is that they have real life connections to these things. It's witnessed through their living rather than press snippets and the views of hippies trying to save the world. Persians ARE Iranian by the way.

The welfare state is doing nothing but supporting laziness and crime. My family heritage is from the northwest of England where opportunities aren't the same as London and yet my parents worked to earn what they wanted/needed. Myself and my siblings do the same and not once have I claimed benefits. Neither have any of my three siblings. I'd rather be a cleaner than do that. Do you have a job? I'm super happy to support unfortunate people who need welfare but I have a friend who was claiming her benefits weren't enough to support her lifestyle and rental costs (a lovely flat which cost about £1000pcm) while she lived with mental illness. I understand mental illness because I have suffered most of my life with certain illnesses myself. I still work hard to support myself and failed to have any sympathy for her. She is able to work but a sense of entitlement leads her to believe she should claim from the state and spend her life living easy. I am not for the babying and supporting the lowest common denominator that labour had been supporting for fifteen years. The labour party was brought about so that people could GAIN MORE rather than DO LESS. I have friends working three jobs to save and others who work themselves to the bone to support themselves and their children while lazy people who lack a conscience would rather let the state work for them. It disgusts me. Your mind is trapped, it's so obvious. I don't get an ounce of freedom in what you say. Freedom is about taking control and breaking through. Everything you say sounds so...defeated and angry. It's a bit passé to be honest.

[Guest]

[Guest]

Given that Madonna is all about making people think, I'm happy that I'm more of a Madonna fan than many who seem to shriek in pain if she's seen as being criticised in any way and think issues which existed long before and will exist long after her should be dictated by what she says.

Her 'question' about America was quite clearly about religious bigotry and Americans who don't speak out about the things she'd spoken about (abroad). The rest of the speech makes that very obvious. There is nothing in there whatsoever which suggests otherwise and her statements about America in her recent concerts make it clear that she does indeed consider it to be a land of 'free speech' and 'liberty'.

I have no idea if Madonna would support another war or not. There have obviously been many wars both before and after Iraq which she said nothing about. I'm pleased she spoke up about Iraq at the time but disappointed that she decides to make statements demonising Iran at exactly the time that many are pushing for war. There have been several studies which showed that coverage and discussion of Iraq's human rights violations increased exponentially in the run-up to the Iraq war in efforts to convince people it was right - the exact same thing is now happening with Iran. Would she have mentioned Iran if she'd given the speech 5 years ago? Frankly, I doubt it.

IT'S NOT ABOUT IRAN. IT'S ABOUT A GIRL WHO WAS SHOT IN THE MUTHAFUCKING HEAD!

[debord]

The relevance of my Persian friends is that they have real life connections to these things. It's witnessed through their living rather than press snippets and the views of hippies trying to save the world. Persians ARE Iranian by the way.

The welfare state is doing nothing but supporting laziness and crime. My family heritage is from the northwest of England where opportunities aren't the same as London and yet my parents worked to earn what they wanted/needed. Myself and my siblings do the same and not once have I claimed benefits. Neither have any of my three siblings. I'd rather be a cleaner than do that. Do you have a job? I'm super happy to support unfortunate people who need welfare but I have a friend who was claiming her benefits weren't enough to support her lifestyle and rental costs (a lovely flat which cost about £1000pcm) while she lived with mental illness. I understand mental illness because I have suffered most of my life with certain illnesses myself. I still work hard to support myself and failed to have any sympathy for her. She is able to work but a sense of entitlement leads her to believe she should claim from the state and spend her life living easy. I am not for the babying and supporting the lowest common denominator that labour had been supporting for fifteen years. The labour party was brought about so that people could GAIN MORE rather than DO LESS. I have friends working three jobs to save and others who work themselves to the bone to support themselves and their children while lazy people who lack a conscience would rather let the state work for them. It disgusts me. Your mind is trapped, it's so obvious. I don't get an ounce of freedom in what you say. Freedom is about taking control and breaking through. Everything you say sounds so...defeated and angry. It's a bit passé to be honest.

Wow, in wheeling out the 'I actually know people from Iran' argument you really expose your true colours. You do realise that people in these countries have different opinions and experiences, right? You do know that knowing a couple doesn't make you an authority?

Funnily enough, unemployment in the UK was at its lowest in 1973, a period when the welfare state was at its most generous. There is absolutely no link between welfare and work, or 'laziness' and you wouldn't be able to find one. I suggest you read this: http://howupsetting.tumblr.com/post/30650975389/atos-and-anti-welfarism . Might make a change from the Daily Mail where you seem to be getting your info from. And yes, I do have a job, thanks. Another instructive assumption, there.

And please, spare me the 'your mind is trapped' therapy-speak drivel. My opinions are based on facts. Yours are based on personal prejudices. It's obvious there's no point carrying this discussion forward.

[debord]

IT'S NOT ABOUT IRAN. IT'S ABOUT A GIRL WHO WAS SHOT IN THE MUTHAFUCKING HEAD!

That was in Pakistan. Oh dear.

[Guest]

Wow, in wheeling out the 'I actually know people from Iran' argument you really expose your true colours. You do realise that people in these countries have different opinions and experiences, right? You do know that knowing a couple doesn't make you an authority?

Funnily enough, unemployment in the UK was at its lowest in 1973, a period when the welfare state was at its most generous. There is absolutely no link between welfare and work, or 'laziness' and you wouldn't be able to find one. I suggest you read this: http://howupsetting.tumblr.com/post/30650975389/atos-and-anti-welfarism . Might make a change from the Daily Mail where you seem to be getting your info from. And yes, I do have a job, thanks. Another instructive assumption, there.

And please, spare me the 'your mind is trapped' therapy-speak drivel. My opinions are based on facts. Yours are based on personal prejudices. It's obvious there's no point carrying this discussion forward.

I've never read the Daily mail in all of my life. How does knowing people actually directly involved in the situation expose my true colours? Surely it shows I have some understanding of what is happening? Let me get this straight. Me knowing people in Persia doesn't make me an authority (I guess that means I'm not allowed an opinion) yet you absorbing media (each with its own agenda) makes you an authority? Wow. I asked if you had a job, rather than saying you weren't working...unlike you saying my opinions are from the DM and prejudice. So who exactly is showing their true colours? In 1973 the welfare state could afford to give more BECAUSE the level of employment was less and at that time the benefit culture was nothing compared to now. I don't hate people on benefits. I do have more regard for hard working people. Sorry that I like people who have a sense of responsibility and strong work ethic. What do you expect from the government? To make welfare easy to claim and to encourage anybody who feels like it to take time off of work?

[Guest]

That was in Pakistan. Oh dear.

Exactly! That was the point I was making. It's not about US versus [muslim country]. I've said this to you umpteen times. It's about individual atrocities against WOMEN. GLAAD is a separate entity but as Madonna always does she took the opportunity to push an issue close to her heart. Imagine a young girl close to you being shot in the head because of some long existing dogmatic nonsense. How would you feel?

[debord]

I've never read the Daily mail in all of my life. How does knowing people actually directly involved in the situation expose my true colours? Surely it shows I have some understanding of what is happening? Let me get this straight. Me knowing people in Persia doesn't make me an authority (I guess that means I'm not allowed an opinion) yet you absorbing media (each with its own agenda) makes you an authority? Wow. I asked if you had a job, rather than saying you weren't working...unlike you saying my opinions are from the DM and prejudice. So who exactly is showing their true colours? In 1973 the welfare state could afford to give more BECAUSE the level of employment was less and at that time the benefit culture was nothing compared to now. I don't hate people on benefits. I do have more regard for hard working people. Sorry that I like people who have a sense of responsibility and strong work ethic. What do you expect from the government? To make welfare easy to claim and to encourage anybody who feels like it to take time off of work?

Wow. You seriously think the welfare state is more entrenched now than it was in 1973? Are you for real? That is ridiculously ignorant.

At no point have I claimed to be an 'authority' on anything. Reading 'media' doesn't make one so and knowing someone from a particular country doesn't make one so.

Did you read the linked to piece? If you did you'll see that the majority of the welfare bill goes on pensioners and people in work. Oops. And you didn't even grasp the 1973 point - unemployment was at its lowest yet levels of benefit were far, far higher than they are now. That alone blows a hole in your theory that people choose to take benefits rather than work.

[aorlaan]

that eye was creepy as fuck

[acko]

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