Seriously...after all this hoopla... GMAYL should make #1! Elites agree¿?

[Kurt420]

^ The conversation started because someone said that you can't expect Madonna to be on top at this stage in her career, that even Gaga was started to fade. We went off on a slight tangent about WHY Gaga's popularity has started to fade - and it's 100% relevant to Madonna's career. If you think we should start a new thread about this specific tangent, that's fair, but at what point does someone decide to do that. I don't think anyone intended it to go on this long. It happens. It's a forum! (And it's not like the title of this thread makes much sense anyway!)

Well, I don't think we disagree all that much. I just think we keep getting away from the point. I'm not trying to say that Gaga causing as much controversy, or that the media has bashed her as much as Madonna. Hell no. All I'm saying is that Gaga's popularity has leveled off partly because she's taking on less mainstream topics and imagery. It doesn't compare to the Justify My Love/Sex period. But above and beyond what Madonna was doing circa Who's That Girl! Automatically when you start exploring more arty things, you're going to lose some of your audience - and THAT was all this conversation started out as. If Adele started using hyper-religious imagery and homoerotic imagery, her sales will drop.

Regarding the Gaga hate, I think the hate toward her among some Madonna fans is obvious, so I'm guessing you see that. But I've also seen online and in person people who think Gaga is manipulative, calculated, fraudulent, trashy, and completely unoriginal. They absolutely despise her and think she represents the worst of pop music and that she's even the END of it. Silly. Maybe all those people are secret Madonna fans, but I'm pretty sure some of them also think the same of Madonna.

I think there are always going to be conservative/puritanical/religious people who will never like someone like Madonna and Gaga because of what they stand for. But in Madonna's case, I don't think the average American really had a strong opinion about her. They either liked her music or didn't. By the early '90s, though, I think many, many average people thought she was a "slut." I'm not sure they "hated" her. I don't think anyone was sitting there going "I hate her for her progressive, subversive ideas!" They just thought she was trashy and flashing her tits all over the place.

OK I get what you're saying, the sentence I highlighted clearly explains to me what you're saying. I can certainly agree with that. Even as "minor" as I may see what Gaga is doing in comparison to Madonna, it only takes a little bit of that sort of imagery to turn some in the general public off and yes I can agree that Gaga has kind of reached that point. Supernatural made a good point that at some point the masses turn and artists are left with their fan base and I guess that's sort of in progress for Gaga atm. I still think the general public "turning" on Gaga at this point has less to do with her "controversial imagery" and more to do with the fact she's just worn out her shock value, but again I'm not saying the religious imagery etc hasn't played any part at all.

The only part I disagree with in your assessment is the second paragraph and how the average American didn't have an opinion on Madonna at the peak of her provocation. Yes, I know many thought she was just a slut and nothing more but she provoked A LOT of discussion back then about social issues. I definitely think people hated her solely for her "progressive and subversive ideas". I mean just her kissing a black guy in LAP was enough to make people dislike her, nevermind the fact that the black guy was portraying Jesus....which raised a whole 'nother issue. I just think that by itself is leaps and bounds ahead of any provocation Gaga has had up until this point. I think sitting here in 2012 it's easy to forget that relatively not that long ago, in 1989, race was still a MAJOR issue in this country...still is to an extent. Obviously Madonna's use of homoerotic imagery in those days...at the peak of AIDS hysteria....was another thing that turned people off that otherwise may like her music.

Again, please don't think I'm trying to dispute you for the sake of it or say that your "wrong" because we all observe and experience things from different perspectives so perhaps that's how you see/saw things when it comes to the reaction Madonna got from people. I just find your perspective interesting, especially since both of us are about the same age (I believe you said you're 32 in another post and I'm 31). It makes me wonder if time has sort made those things seem not as big of a deal and I wonder if young Gaga fans feel that same way.

Also sorry to the people who are upset by the Gaga talk but it's in direct relation to Madonna so I figured it's ok to keep it going without taking it to the Gaga thread.

[Ai Papi Si.]

^ The conversation started because someone said that you can't expect Madonna to be on top at this stage in her career, that even Gaga was started to fade. We went off on a slight tangent about WHY Gaga's popularity has started to fade - and it's 100% relevant to Madonna's career. If you think we should start a new thread about this specific tangent, that's fair, but at what point does someone decide to do that. I don't think anyone intended it to go on this long. It happens. It's a forum! (And it's not like the title of this thread makes much sense anyway!)

Well, I don't think we disagree all that much. I just think we keep getting away from the point. I'm not trying to say that Gaga causing as much controversy, or that the media has bashed her as much as Madonna. Hell no. All I'm saying is that Gaga's popularity has leveled off partly because she's taking on less mainstream topics and imagery. It doesn't compare to the Justify My Love/Sex period. But above and beyond what Madonna was doing circa Who's That Girl! Automatically when you start exploring more arty things, you're going to lose some of your audience - and THAT was all this conversation started out as. If Adele started using hyper-religious imagery and homoerotic imagery, her sales will drop.

Regarding the Gaga hate, I think the hate toward her among some Madonna fans is obvious, so I'm guessing you see that. But I've also seen online and in person people who think Gaga is manipulative, calculated, fraudulent, trashy, and completely unoriginal. They absolutely despise her and think she represents the worst of pop music and that she's even the END of it. Silly. Maybe all those people are secret Madonna fans, but I'm pretty sure some of them also think the same of Madonna.

I think there are always going to be conservative/puritanical/religious people who will never like someone like Madonna and Gaga because of what they stand for. But in Madonna's case, I don't think the average American really had a strong opinion about her. They either liked her music or didn't. By the early '90s, though, I think many, many average people thought she was a "slut." I'm not sure they "hated" her. I don't think anyone was sitting there going "I hate her for her progressive, subversive ideas!" They just thought she was trashy and flashing her tits all over the place.

I think you're pretty off the mark on this whole thing. Madonna was a pretty divisive persona at her peak- loved and reviled and always a hot topic in any context. In 1992 the scales tipped against her because she crossed a line and started to become a little obnoxious to people much like lady Gaga is now, only people were up in arms because she did something pretty crazy for that time.

With Gaga, it's just a general feel of ambivalence now, and not becuz she's done anything in particular to spark up controversy. people aren't tired of Lady Gaga because she's too arty for them now. They're tired of her because she won't go away. She was just as subversive and arty at the zenith of her career, with the videos for Fame Monster and that stupid meat dress. She didn't become that way outta nowhere- she's been that way for awhile. The public is simply fatigued because she is overexposed.

[vocalism]

Kurt, I totally respect what you're saying. And again, I do think what Madonna was going was leaps and bounds ahead/more controversial than what Gaga is doing, partly because of the time period and partly because it was just more sophisticated and "new." But I think what Gaga is doing falls into the same "brand" of provocation. She's obviously influenced by that period of Madonna's career and it shows. I'm not saying it's on the same level, just that I think part of her decline in popularity right now is because of it.

12:51, I'm not sure it's just because Gaga won't "go away." There are plenty of artists who have been as prolific and in your face (Rihanna, Beyonce, Mariah). Hell, she's only been around for four years. Mariah put out an album a year for a decade! I think overexposure definitely plays a part, but I think if she were still releasing songs like "Just Dance" or even "Bad Romance," she'd be doing better. (Not that she's doing bad - she sold the same amount of albums in 2011 that she did in 2010 and 2009, and BTW was the third biggest selling album of last year, and it included four Top 10 hits, one of which was #1 for six weeks.) But I truly believe that the "Gaga fatigue" is partly due to her pushing certain cultural buttons. When BTW came out, I saw loads of people on other boards saying that she was instantly going to shrink her fanbase because the song was so "gay." To keep things on topic, Madonna was always popular with the gays for obvious reasons (like Gaga), but it's when she really started mining that demographic (LAP, "Vogue," Erotica) that she became a gay "icon."

[Supernatural]

But I truly believe that the "Gaga fatigue" is partly due to her pushing certain cultural buttons. When BTW came out, I saw loads of people on other boards saying that she was instantly going to shrink her fanbase because the song was so "gay." To keep things on topic, Madonna was always popular with the gays for obvious reasons (like Gaga), but it's when she really started mining that demographic (LAP, "Vogue," Erotica) that she became a gay "icon."

Gaga is looking for a loyal fanbase like Madonna has, that will pay $300 for concert tickets, it's all 100% intentional IMO. Todays pop stars probably won't ever have that. And Gaga won't if her shows aren't great, or maybe that ship is already sailing for her?

[Ai Papi Si.]

Overexposure has less to do with the frequency of which one puts out music and more to do with how one markets themselves. Rihanna continues to be successful because she isn't really a media sensation or a highly discussed woman. Mariah Carey was the same, until her music got really bad and she started trying to act, subsequently going crazy. Beyonce flopped cuz she released very un-single worthy material and developed a reputation for being a phoney.

Lady Gaga's decline has been because she has been on every magazine, every Internet blog post, every tv show, and every tweet for 3 years. Part of it isn't her fault, but she chose to market herself as a messiah and she really wanted to be top of mind 24/7, and with the way things are now, people get sick of you pretty quick.

There's nothing controversial about her other than the clothes she wears- even that is a stretch. She has definitely done a good job of fighting for gay rights, which is admirable, not controversial or scandalous. If people have divided opinions on Lady Gaga its not because of what she stands for. It's because of how obnoxious she has become as a persona and a musician tbqh

[Supernatural]

you can make a long list of specific Madonna controversies, I can't think of any for Gaga; just stunts like meat dresses and arriving in an Egg. A good Madonna controversy left people dabating a topic.

[XXL]

Kurt, I totally respect what you're saying. And again, I do think what Madonna was going was leaps and bounds ahead/more controversial than what Gaga is doing, partly because of the time period and partly because it was just more sophisticated and "new." But I think what Gaga is doing falls into the same "brand" of provocation. She's obviously influenced by that period of Madonna's career and it shows. I'm not saying it's on the same level, just that I think part of her decline in popularity right now is because of it.

12:51, I'm not sure it's just because Gaga won't "go away." There are plenty of artists who have been as prolific and in your face (Rihanna, Beyonce, Mariah). Hell, she's only been around for four years. Mariah put out an album a year for a decade! I think overexposure definitely plays a part, but I think if she were still releasing songs like "Just Dance" or even "Bad Romance," she'd be doing better. (Not that she's doing bad - she sold the same amount of albums in 2011 that she did in 2010 and 2009, and BTW was the third biggest selling album of last year, and it included four Top 10 hits, one of which was #1 for six weeks.) But I truly believe that the "Gaga fatigue" is partly due to her pushing certain cultural buttons. When BTW came out, I saw loads of people on other boards saying that she was instantly going to shrink her fanbase because the song was so "gay." To keep things on topic, Madonna was always popular with the gays for obvious reasons (like Gaga), but it's when she really started mining that demographic (LAP, "Vogue," Erotica) that she became a gay "icon."

sorry but everything Gaga has ever done to this point is SO GAY, and in a poor way too. nothing groundbraking or truly shocking in her brand of provocation. there is nothing to shrink. her real fanbase was gay and will stay gay till the end of her career (which she's doing everything she can to sabotage herself)

[XXL]

you can make a long list of specific Madonna controversies, I can't think of any for Gaga; just stunts like meat dresses and arriving in an Egg. A good Madonna controversy left people dabating a topic.

A topic of cultural and social interest. Not selling her cheap pyramid-shaped headphones thru some supposedly edgy cheap video.

[Nightshade]

you can make a long list of specific Madonna controversies, I can't think of any for Gaga; just stunts like meat dresses and arriving in an Egg. A good Madonna controversy left people dabating a topic.

I actually still like Lady Gaga, but this statement is very true. I believe her to be very talented, but she is not changing the culture in the way Madonna has.

[tuckeye]

well at least lady gags has it down packed - KOOKY is the new shocking

not having anything to say is the new thing to say!

[XXL]

I actually still like Lady Gaga, but this statement is very true. I believe her to be very talented, but she is not changing the culture in the way Madonna has.

Thank God some of her fans will admit that

Not only she is not impacting culturally but she isn't creating anything new either

[vocalism]

It's really, really difficult to have a real conversation about Lady Gaga when almost everyone in the room hates her and is incapable of being objective. You guys are so blinded by your distaste for her that you can't see past the Madonna comparisons to what I'm actually saying. I do think part of it has to do with exposure, and I also think the "quality" of the music matters. I happen to like BTW a lot, but I can see how it wouldn't resonate on pop radio like her past hits. These are all factors.

XXL and 12:51: Madonna appealed to the gays from the start too. But "Just Dance," etc. had broad appeal. A song about trannys and lesbians and videos with men in tights and heels are taking it to a level where it's inherently going to alienate more casual fans who are just listening for the pop songs and the fun costumes. She crossed a line. Nobody's talking about whether the controversies were "good" or not. You guys are confusing what I'm saying with me saying Gaga is as good or controversial as Madonna was. For the last time: That's not what I've been saying. Read what I'm actually saying! Kurt did!

Supernatural: You're confusing "stunts" or individual controversies (which Madonna has many of and Gaga has few) with an overall tone. Gaga's images have become more and more subversive, and more and more gay. That is one factor that is turning off Middle America. I'm not saying it's the only one, but it's one.

Edited February 18, 2012 by vocalism

[neutrocks]

It's really, really difficult to have a real conversation about Lady Gaga when almost everyone in the room hates her and is incapable of being objective. You guys are so blinded by your distaste for her that you can't see past the Madonna comparisons to what I'm actually saying. I do think part of it has to do with exposure, and I also think the "quality" of the music matters. I happen to like BTW a lot, but I can see how it wouldn't resonate on pop radio like her past hits. These are all factors.

XXL and 12:51: Madonna appealed to the gays from the start too. But "Just Dance," etc. had broad appeal. A song about trannys and lesbians and videos with men in tights and heels are taking it to a level where it's inherently going to alienate more casual fans who are just listening for the pop songs and the fun costumes. She crossed a line. Nobody's talking about whether the controversies were "good" or not. You guys are confusing what I'm saying with me saying Gaga is as good or controversial as Madonna was. For the last time: That's not what I've been saying. Read what I'm actually saying! Kurt did!

Supernatural: You're confusing "stunts" or individual controversies (which Madonna has many of and Gaga has few) with an overall tone. Gaga's images have become more and more subversive, and more and more gay. That is one factor that is turning off Middle America. I'm not saying it's the only one, but it's one.

I think the thing is that you're wasting your time here in regards to Lady Gaga convo. I like Lady Gaga's music. She's a decent artist. I see why she's being compared to Madonna, yet I see some stark differences as well. It's the idea that she keeps being brought up in every freakin' Madonna thread that really doesn't have anything to do with her. It's obvious you're a big fan of hers. AWESOME. It's obviously you are a big fan of Madonna. EVEN MORE AWESOME!! I totally respect people like you who can talk about both artists respectably and positively without turning into a Lady Gaga VS. Madonna thread. However, this thread was and is about Madonna. Once you bring in Lady Gaga, you're going to have to expect some ridiculous, nasty and rude comments will be thrown out. Most of the time it's by the same people who keep saying the same things about her. They have every right to dislike her. I don't agree how some excessively or shall I say obsessively talk negatively of her, but again, you're wasting your time trying to fight that sort of mentality. Focus on what you like. Ignore the nonsense. Some enjoy rattling the chains here. Some aren't as serious as you might think they are.

[Guest bluejean]

It's really, really difficult to have a real conversation about Lady Gaga when almost everyone in the room hates her and is incapable of being objective.

Maybe consider going to the Gaga thread or to a Gaga board then. Alot of Madonna fans do like her but the ones that don't will leap down your throat the fastest and most aggressively here because this is a Madonna board.

[tuckeye]

i hate lady gags, but i admit she changed the game...she brought back that STAR power...it effected everyone around her to beyonce, christina, rihanna, katy perry, nicki-they all think they have to wear tacky over the top costumes or colored wigs now...or have a weird over the top nonsensical performance

lady gags fans r young and do not know about the past, even when they do, it is irrelevent to their times, so they tag themselves onto someone who is an underdog and speaks to them-the same way madonna has with us in generations past...and all the gay icons of the past to their generations

the controversy lies in her wacky costumes in the same vein as cher and grace jones...without all that she has nothing to offer but her voice.

the controvesy over her music, namely born this way - is only due to the fact that it sounds like express yourself and lady gags stating it does not.

madonna stated that she is riding the zietgiest, in the same way madonna herself has, but the difference is lady gags does not give credit where it is due.

saying she is orginal when clearly she was MADE THAT WAY and is not orginal...saying the album of the decade...all makes me feel that lady gags has lost touch with herself and the general public....just as she probably had in high school when the other girls did not like her for this very attitude.

[XXL]

XXL and 12:51: Madonna appealed to the gays from the start too.

I got the general sense of your post but you got it all wrong there. Madonna's relationship with her gay fanbase is completely different from Gaga's and the connotation of the start and development of such relationship just as different.

Madonna started out performing as a member of a band in New York clubs when she wasn't a solo act wearing a Keith Haring dress and performing to a mostly gay crowd at Paradise garage. When she had her big break deal wise as a solo artist meaning 1983 onwards her appeal was truly a mainstream appeal and the core of her fanbase wasn't gay AT ALL. (of course she had lots of gay fans) but I mean that her association with gay culture and her gay marketability wasn't truly evident until Vogue 7 years into her career. Gaga on the other hand immediately was marketed to cater to hordes of gay *freaks*, the bullied ones ( ), in the internet savvy era of the *Internet ghey*. Madonna wasn't immediately an act associated with gay culture or a gay fanbase, even though she and the gay community go back to the late seventies to Cristopher Flynn etc etc

Gaga never had this sort of more *general* audience:

1987 the crowd in Italy. Tell me if the audience looks predominantly gay

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMKH-DMA1wc

This is what Gaga's core audience has been since the start, she is not as mainstream as people think she is. Only her youtube and facebook subscriptions and Itunes swell the numbers, giving an air of huge mainstream sensation

[neutrocks]

Maybe consider going to the Gaga thread or to a Gaga board then. Alot of Madonna fans do like her but the ones that don't will leap down your throat the fastest and most aggressively here because this is a Madonna board.

Unfortunately, there isn't a thread here at this forum that truly represents Gaga positively. Yes, there is a thread or shall I say threads devoted to her, and possibly one or two were posted with good intentions, but for the most part, it's made up of people bashing her. But I agree that the idea of bringing Gaga up almost in every Madonna thread anymore, is getting tiresome. But at least, Vocalism is trying to be objective and positive about her when comparing to Madonna. I think the criticism should be aimed towards those who bring her up constantly with negative intentions, especially when someone is simply trying to be objective or positive about her.

[Supernatural]

Madonna has a gay sensibility that transcends pro-gay sentiment, as appreciated as it is.

[reQuiem4adream]

thank god the internet wasn't popular back in the 80's. there's a lot of misuse of the internet these days especially by lil monsters.

[Ai Papi Si.]

It's really, really difficult to have a real conversation about Lady Gaga when almost everyone in the room hates her and is incapable of being objective. You guys are so blinded by your distaste for her that you can't see past the Madonna comparisons to what I'm actually saying. I do think part of it has to do with exposure, and I also think the "quality" of the music matters. I happen to like BTW a lot, but I can see how it wouldn't resonate on pop radio like her past hits. These are all factors.

XXL and 12:51: Madonna appealed to the gays from the start too. But "Just Dance," etc. had broad appeal. A song about trannys and lesbians and videos with men in tights and heels are taking it to a level where it's inherently going to alienate more casual fans who are just listening for the pop songs and the fun costumes. She crossed a line. Nobody's talking about whether the controversies were "good" or not. You guys are confusing what I'm saying with me saying Gaga is as good or controversial as Madonna was. For the last time: That's not what I've been saying. Read what I'm actually saying! Kurt did!

Supernatural: You're confusing "stunts" or individual controversies (which Madonna has many of and Gaga has few) with an overall tone. Gaga's images have become more and more subversive, and more and more gay. That is one factor that is turning off Middle America. I'm not saying it's the only one, but it's one.

No I totally understood what you said. I mean like it or not, you did say that Lady Gaga is/was a more culturally provocative and political artist (go back a few posts and read what you said- if you didn't want us to misunderstand you then you probably should have been clearer) ... and that people have stronger opinions on her than they ever did of Madonna, which we know isn't true. I'm not denigrating her talent as a writer or performer so please cool it with the "you're blind omg" talk. I loved her last album and for awhile it seemed as though she was growing up a little. Recently I'm just sick of her like a lot of people though. I'm entitled to my opinion, and it has little to do with Madonna and stan competition or whatever.

Anyway, Gaga's dark, gay, trannylicious behavior goes back as far as her Paparazzi video, and she enjoyed a huge streak of hits for a solid 2 years before she started to wear thin on people. If her tastes were too much for America she would have started to bomb way earlier. Let's face it, the darkest she ever went was Alejandro and Bad Romance, those were 2 years ago. Born This Way simply didn't have the hit appeal of her first 2 albums, period. And the fact that her image was starting to get irritating didn't help either. This whole "turning off Middle America" theory is so odd to me. She never appealed to Middle America in the first place. Her fanbase was teenagers, young kids, and gays of all ages, from the start. It's not like her bread and butter was soccer moms or yuppies. Those people are buying Adele. Her fan base is just eroding because she. Plain & simple.

[XXL]

She never appealed to Middle America in the first place. Her fanbase was teenagers, young kids, and gays of all ages, from the start. It's not like her bread and butter was soccer moms or yuppies.

THIS

[encore]

madonna supported gays when it wasn't a cool thing to do. lady gaga now just do it for marketing, it's obvious...

[tuckeye]

madonna brought the gays to the mainstream, while others just merely latch on in namesake

anyway, the hoopla for the song has died down now, i mean, if madonna fans cant even talk about madonna's new song in a madonna forum, then i am sure the general public isnt talking about her new song either (look at it this way - their not really talking about lady gags too!)

[XXL]

madonna supported gays when it wasn't a cool thing to do. lady gaga now just do it for marketing, it's obvious...

[Guest FrozenEyes]

Unfortunately, there isn't a thread here at this forum that truly represents Gaga positively. Yes, there is a thread or shall I say threads devoted to her, and possibly one or two were posted with good intentions, but for the most part, it's made up of people bashing her. But I agree that the idea of bringing Gaga up almost in every Madonna thread anymore, is getting tiresome. But at least, Vocalism is trying to be objective and positive about her when comparing to Madonna. I think the criticism should be aimed towards those who bring her up constantly with negative intentions, especially when someone is simply trying to be objective or positive about her.

madonna brought the gays to the mainstream, while others just merely latch on in namesake

anyway, the hoopla for the song has died down now, i mean, if madonna fans cant even talk about madonna's new song in a madonna forum, then i am sure the general public isnt talking about her new song either (look at it this way - their not really talking about lady gags too!)

For better or worse, that's the truth.

[zephyralexxx]

Vote here please!

http://rouyn.radionrj.ca/Hitliste.aspx