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Is there a 2nd backlash?


Apples388

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Madonna would have been NOTHING without the media and any superstar needs the media to show a positive image if the artist wants to be relevant.

Aside from 1998-2001 when has the media EVER been overwhelmingly positive about Madonna or tried to paint her in a positive light for the public?? She's ALWAYS been talentless, she's ALWAYS been a slut, she ALWAYS been almost "over", around '93-'94 she became a washed up, past her prime pop star.....OLD in other words, which is a label she hasn't (and will never) shed.

You are right in one thing, Madonna would be nothing without the media. Her haters have actually helped her become a bigger icon than she would have if she were universally loved.

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But Madonna's adopted black culture many times in the 80's and 90's. It has nothing to do with race as much as ones preferred musical tastes. It can be very possible that there are people out there who liked Reggie Lucas, Nile Rodgers and Babyface's productions that don't like Pharrell's or Timbaland's. It has nothing to do with race anymore than people who loved Pat Leonard and Orbit but didn't care for Stuart Price.

Exactly. You are comparing people who have the same ethnicity and not necessarily the same culture. I guess a lot of Madonna fans began liking her at a specific point due to a specific song or album. 'That' Madonna then becomes emblazened in their mind as THE Madonna. So every time she moves away from that image they become really worried. Other fans of hers enjoy her for the whole thing...the organic growth and massive body of work. Those fans can more readily slip into a new musical style, new image, new album, new career choice. Some people would like her making the same album over and over and over again. Thank God she doesn't do that. We have Kylie and Mimi for those pleasures.

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There is always a chance for a backlash. It depends on what the public decides is acceptable at the time. It's never her music that creates the backlash it is usually her opinions around it. For example she was exploring sex during the Erotica era, she was speaking out against the war during American Life. She was still showing her crotch area in her 50s during the Hard Candy era. So it's up to her. But whatever she decides to speak out about, I'll still buy her music because it is good and she is always trying something new for herself.

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I also resent the statement that Madonna would have been 'NOTHING' without the media. She wouldn't have had the 'iconic' status within the eye of the average Joe. But fuck the average Joe. Her work speaks for itself and it is her work and star charisma that encouraged every journalist to write their piece on her in the first place. She doesn't owe them ANYTHING!

''There are some who say they created me, but only my parents will have that acclaim. I took it from there, I am to blame...''

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Guest nothingfails0603

Aside from 1998-2001 when has the media EVER been overwhelmingly positive about Madonna or tried to paint her in a positive light for the public?? She's ALWAYS been talentless, she's ALWAYS been a slut, she ALWAYS been almost "over", around '93-'94 she became a washed up, past her prime pop star.....OLD in other words, which is a label she hasn't (and will never) shed.

You are right in one thing, Madonna would be nothing without the media. Her haters have actually helped her become a bigger icon than she would have if she were universally loved.

I think the negative press of late stings more because we saw what suddenly happened in 1996-2000 when suddenly she became a public darling. I remember all the love she got from the press when she had Lourdes, and then the universal positive reviews she got for Evita and Ray Of Light and the positive press her wedding with Guy had. It seemed like once Swept Away bombed (they seemingly were willing to forgive TNBT like they did Shanghai Surprise) and American Life came out, all of a sudden that five year stretch of good press suddenly was shoved under the rug like it never happened and she was STILL the "talentless slut", "hasbeen pop star", etc... from 1993, as if her career rehabilitation of 1994-2000 never happened. And to this day it seems to be universally negative. Michael Jackson was the only celebrity I can think of who has dealt with half the media bullshit Madonna goes through, and of course those same papers that bashed him relentlessly for the last 15 years suddenly martyred and praised him immediately after he died.

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Exactly. You are comparing people who have the same ethnicity and not necessarily the same culture. I guess a lot of Madonna fans began liking her at a specific point due to a specific song or album. 'That' Madonna then becomes emblazened in their mind as THE Madonna. So every time she moves away from that image they become really worried. Other fans of hers enjoy her for the whole thing...the organic growth and massive body of work. Those fans can more readily slip into a new musical style, new image, new album, new career choice. Some people would like her making the same album over and over and over again. Thank God she doesn't do that. We have Kylie and Mimi for those pleasures.

You nailed it with that. That's another reason the past couple of years have been so divisive amongst her diehard fan base IMO. The "ray of lighters" as Pud lovingly refers to them...lol....have never really seen a truly different Madonna until HC. From ROL-COADF she was pretty much doing different variations of the same type of "electronica" dance music. She may've had quite a few hairstyle and clothing style changes during that time (although not like her 80's/90's reinventions), but she was pretty much the "Lady Of The Manor" that whole time in attitude and image. Then, she had big changes in her life, so obviously the music and image reflected that (nothing new there). It seems to me she wasn't as focused in pushing her "newfound maturity and enlightenment" like she had been for a decade and that's what drew many "ray of lighters" to her in the first place. Naturally, to them it seems like Madonna has lost what made her MADONNA. Of course for those who have been around forever, that change didn't seem jarring or a step down artistically neccesarily, it just seemed like....well....like Madonna doing what she's always done. Switching it up. You like it great you don't....peace out!

It's funny to me because I actually found it REFRESHING when she switched it up with HC. Not that I hated what she was doing before...quite the contrary, she produced some of her best music ever. But I kind of accepted that she'd probably ALWAYS continue to do the same sort of electronic/euro-centric music she had been doing since ROL. I also thought Madonna the "bad girl" was long gone. So when she switched her sound up a bit and didn't mind being a little naughty again TO ME it felt like the OLD Madonna was back. IRONIC considering many here think the OLD Madonna died right around HC's release.

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You nailed it with that. That's another reason the past couple of years have been so divisive amongst her diehard fan base IMO. The "ray of lighters" as Pud lovingly refers to them...lol....have never really seen a truly different Madonna until HC. From ROL-COADF she was pretty much doing different variations of the same type of "electronica" dance music. She may've had quite a few hairstyle and clothing style changes during that time (although not like her 80's/90's reinventions), but she was pretty much the "Lady Of The Manor" that whole time in attitude and image. Then, she had big changes in her life, so obviously the music and image reflected that (nothing new there). It seems to me she wasn't as focused in pushing her "newfound maturity and enlightenment" like she had been for a decade and that's what drew many "ray of lighters" to her in the first place. Naturally, to them it seems like Madonna has lost what made her MADONNA. Of course for those who have been around forever, that change didn't seem jarring or a step down artistically neccesarily, it just seemed like....well....like Madonna doing what she's always done. Switching it up. You like it great you don't....peace out!

It's funny to me because I actually found it REFRESHING when she switched it up with HC. Not that I hated what she was doing before...quite the contrary, she produced some of her best music ever. But I kind of accepted that she'd probably ALWAYS continue to do the same sort of electronic/euro-centric music she had been doing since ROL. I also thought Madonna the "bad girl" was long gone. So when she switched her sound up a bit and didn't mind being a little naughty again TO ME it felt like the OLD Madonna was back. IRONIC considering many here think the OLD Madonna died right around HC's release.

THIS. :clap:

The "ray of lighters" need to fuck off. They jumped on board late in the game, and feel all betrayed. :wacko::lmao:

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Guest nothingfails0603

I don't know if I even buy the argument with "Ray Of Lighters", surely these people who got into Madonna in 1998 knew she had 15 years behind her at that point and are familiar with the earlier work. Surely all these ROL-ers have heard Bedtime Stories for instance.

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I think the negative press of late stings more because we saw what suddenly happened in 1996-2000 when suddenly she became a public darling. I remember all the love she got from the press when she had Lourdes, and then the universal positive reviews she got for Evita and Ray Of Light and the positive press her wedding with Guy had. It seemed like once Swept Away bombed (they seemingly were willing to forgive TNBT like they did Shanghai Surprise) and American Life came out, all of a sudden that five year stretch of good press suddenly was shoved under the rug like it never happened and she was STILL the "talentless slut", "hasbeen pop star", etc... from 1993, as if her career rehabilitation of 1994-2000 never happened. And to this day it seems to be universally negative. Michael Jackson was the only celebrity I can think of who has dealt with half the media bullshit Madonna goes through, and of course those same papers that bashed him relentlessly for the last 15 years suddenly martyred and praised him immediately after he died.

For a moment in '98-'01 it did seem she was past any negative press. It seemed in the eyes of the media she finally earned her righful place as "darling" for good. Since M likes to switch it up all the time though, that was never going to happen. At this point, you can take away the surgeries, the boy toy and the "raw sticky and sweet" attitude and she'd still probably get attacked. Just the fact that she's a 52 year old woman who INSISTS on continuing to play the "pop star" game is enough for her to get attacked.

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I don't know if I even buy the argument with "Ray Of Lighters", surely these people who got into Madonna in 1998 knew she had 15 years behind her at that point and are familiar with the earlier work. Surely all these ROL-ers have heard Bedtime Stories for instance.

I'm sure most "ray of lighters" were familiar with and probably even liked some of her work before. It seems though she did gain a new legion of diehards around that time who were and are more interested in her work ROL onward than her pre ROL releases.

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I also resent the statement that Madonna would have been 'NOTHING' without the media. She wouldn't have had the 'iconic' status within the eye of the average Joe. But fuck the average Joe. Her work speaks for itself and it is her work and star charisma that encouraged every journalist to write their piece on her in the first place. She doesn't owe them ANYTHING!

You really seem to have no idea. You can have the best song ever, but if you are not popular, nobody knows it and you end up being a cult artist. And Madonna knew that and have work for 20 years to use any kind of commercial tricks to be always popular. Why do you think she licks Perez Hilton's ass? He represents what she seems to hate in songs like Knobody Knows Me or I'm So Stupid and American Life, but she ends up doing videos for him hoovering and she even shares her microphone so he can sing in a concert. She is VERY clever and knows that media has to be her friend.

Nobody can survive with negative press. You end up being a has been, a laughing stock or simply a forgotten artist.

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It all depends on what "press" you are talking about. Obviously you need your music to be promoted in the media. You can write the best songs in the world but if no one knows about them they won't sell. But when people talk about Madonna and negative press, they are usually talking about the tabloid press that write about her personal life. But most people think tabloids are a joke and certainly don't look to them to find out about who has a new record out. The press that is important is the music press and fashion magazines and general interest publications like Vanity Fair to promote her music. I don't think those publications have turned against her.

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You really seem to have no idea. You can have the best song ever, but if you are not popular, nobody knows it and you end up being a cult artist. And Madonna knew that and have work for 20 years to use any kind of commercial tricks to be always popular. Why do you think she licks Perez Hilton's ass? He represents what she seems to hate in songs like Knobody Knows Me or I'm So Stupid and American Life, but she ends up doing videos for him hoovering and she even shares her microphone so he can sing in a concert. She is VERY clever and knows that media has to be her friend.

Nobody can survive with negative press. You end up being a has been, a laughing stock or simply a forgotten artist.

Wow. I now feel so much more knowledgable. Thanks Karbs. What you have to understand is that Madonna is a star no matter what. It just so happens that stars shine brighter through a camera lens. I'm not saying that her commercial viability isn't or hasn't been increased by the media. I know how the media works, thank you. I'm saying that Madonna is one person who has controlled the flow of the media way more than it's controlled the flow of her. She used it to her own ends and I don't think that was money. She has enormous influence and has left a massive mark on the world that won't be forgotten. I'm not talking record sales here, I'm talking about her message of passion and freedom and making yourself a better and happier person. That will live on way past her physical disappearance.

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Guest bluejean

It all depends on what "press" you are talking about. Obviously you need your music to be promoted in the media. You can write the best songs in the world but if no one knows about them they won't sell. But when people talk about Madonna and negative press, they are usually talking about the tabloid press that write about her personal life. But most people think tabloids are a joke and certainly don't look to them to find out about who has a new record out. The press that is important is the music press and fashion magazines and general interest publications like Vanity Fair to promote her music. I don't think those publications have turned against her.

A very good point. Although unfortunately I feel that alot of the negativity is with the public. People just don't seem to be up Madonna's ass like they were 10 years ago. Whether it matters or not, I'm not sure. But her credibility is certainly not too high at the moment.

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^^ Err... isn't that exactly what i said and you said that was not true that "fuck the media who cares"????

:D

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^^ Err... isn't that exactly what i said and you said that was not true that "fuck the media who cares"????

NO. YOU said that she would be NOTHING without the media. I disagreed. I think that her amazingness made the media OBSESSED with her and of course for the common person it makes Madonna more exposed. I'm sure I would have loved her no matter what. I don't know about you but not every artist I like is in every newspaper every time they step outside.

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Two cents about Madonna working with black producers –

Madonna is an exact-ist. She works with commercial producers for their commercial sound. She’s in no way attempting to push them outside their comfort zone. I guess it makes sense. If she were to make a country album she’d use the most popular country producers, or at least producers she was familiar with through their efforts with acts she likes.

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Guest nothingfails0603

Two cents about Madonna working with black producers –

Madonna is an exact-ist. She works with commercial producers for their commercial sound. She’s in no way attempting to push them outside their comfort zone. I guess it makes sense. If she were to make a country album she’d use the most popular country producers, or at least producers she was familiar with through their efforts with acts she likes.

I guess that's true, but if anything it says more about the producers' lack of diversity than Madonna herself. Even going back to Like A Virgin, Nile Rodgers didn't produce her exactly the same way he produced David Bowie or Diana Ross whereas Timbaland saw Madonna as just one of his "factory" artists. The reason I liked his work with Bjork was because it felt like a collaboration, you could "hear" his work in Earth Intruders and Innocence, but at the same time it didn't sound like a FutureSex/LoveSound or Loose throwaway either. Madonna has earned the entitlement of the same respect Bjork does from a producer IMO.

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Yeah, Madonna WANTED to be produced by that well known Timbaland sound. Bjork wanted the sonic involvement of Timbaland but a sound that she created to be the final product. To me, the record sounds like Madonna had gone into the future in 1986 and made True Blue a different way. It has a similar feel to it. Of course it sounds very different, but something feels the same.

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Well I dunno, I think there ARE tremendous singles on HC. I wasn't really talking about that though. Just the Madonna style on the record and the feeling that it gives you to listen to it. There are tracks that I skip on both CDs.

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the 2nd backlash was in 2003- mid 2004 (us and eu). it still hasnt ended in us. in eu it ended 05-08. now general public probably dont care in both eu and usa. she has to really bring it with the next album if she wants to be a force to be reckon with. just a great album will be enough to make all europeans crazy about her. i dont think she ll ever do amazing in usa from now on. she ll do big tours there and thats it. maybe a first single in top 30 but thats it. she ll probably never had another n 1 in usa.

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When people say that "she has to bring it" and "she needs a really big hit", what do they mean? Because when i say that 4 Minutes, although number one over there did not help Madonna's image, and Sticky and Sweet didn't help either.... I am suddenly alone and nobody agrees.

I don't mean to throw controversy here and i am not even critisizing people. I really can't understand it. If she were so sucesfull with that album that is among the 10 bestsellers of the year and is "good" to some people... then, why does she need to come back stronger than before?

Please, don't insult me in your answers. Be gentle. I don't mean to hurt anybody's tender feelings.

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Yeah, Madonna WANTED to be produced by that well known Timbaland sound. Bjork wanted the sonic involvement of Timbaland but a sound that she created to be the final product. To me, the record sounds like Madonna had gone into the future in 1986 and made True Blue a different way. It has a similar feel to it. Of course it sounds very different, but something feels the same.

it's a very 80's Madonna album. S&S was a very 80's Madonna tour.

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When people say that "she has to bring it"

in the sense that she has to make a great album again ala ROL or COADF.

and "she needs a really big hit", what do they mean?

i think if she really tries and does something groundbreaking and from her heart, it will connect to lots of people as always and it will be hit. but a desperate attept at hit will make her just look stupid like 4 minutes. it didnt really feel like a madonna song...

Because when i say that 4 Minutes, although number one over there did not help Madonna's image, and Sticky and Sweet didn't help either....

because that song wasnt really her. it was t&t.

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It will be around ten years after she retires from the limelight before she is appreciated on a greater scale. I sometimes wonder what songs will be plucked from the past to define her. Looking back on other pop careers, sometimes the big hits of the day fade into obscurity but then less popular songs are picked up on and define the artist. Hope for Pretender and Jimmy, Jimmy?

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