Is there a 2nd backlash?

[MaddysMuff]

What does color have to do with it? Oh, lord.

[Guest nothingfails0603]

What does color have to do with it? Oh, lord.

right, I dislike Nickelback and artists of that ilk more than I do rap. I usually just don't pay attention to rap, you can't turn on the radio without hearing Nickelback, Daughtry and acts like that. Does my distaste for this red state crap (yes, being in KY I am bitter that this Republican trash comes here while most gay-friendly stuff avoids us like the plague) have to do with them being... white?

[MaddysMuff]

Let's not make excuses here. It wasn't about race and it wasn't about 'juggling' her style. The reason why most critics had an "issue" (if you will) with her collaborating with Timberland/Timberlake and Pharrell was that she was following an old, somewhat tired sound rather than setting the trend herself, which is what she is known for in the mainstream media.

Mmmhmm.

[Guest]

To me, Pud was commenting about culture...not skin colour. I don't think it was a racist remark at all.

[Guest nothingfails0603]

To me, Pud was commenting about culture...not skin colour. I don't think it was a racist remark at all.

But Madonna's adopted black culture many times in the 80's and 90's. It has nothing to do with race as much as ones preferred musical tastes. It can be very possible that there are people out there who liked Reggie Lucas, Nile Rodgers and Babyface's productions that don't like Pharrell's or Timbaland's. It has nothing to do with race anymore than people who loved Pat Leonard and Orbit but didn't care for Stuart Price.

[jonski43]

She's never had the cultural crossover that Mariah Carey had but she's never consistenly worked in that genre unlike MC whose back catalogue has extensively. I really can't see how someone like Madonna whose writing partner on some of her biggest hits at the start was black would get criticism for working with black producers? It's trying to rap on American Life that cause grief. Also, Madonna is regarded as a 'gay' artist (as in big gay fanbase) but I've never really seen the tag apply to MC, MJ or WH. They just attract nutters.

[GimmeSomeMo]

Ironically, the person that played the race card constantly refers to Janet Jackson as a BEAST.

[Flip The Switch]

Ironically, the person that played the race card constantly refers to Janet Jackson as a BEAST.

let alone the tired excuse of "ray of lighters" when you don't like something recent. If you were since the beginning, you will like ANYTHING.

[Supernatural]

It has nothing to do with their race. Some people just don't like hip hop rhythms. They wouldn't have liked it if you worked with white hip hop producers or artists like Eminem or someone either.

outside of 4M I only hear pop on the album?

and I don't think there's a backlash- lots of excitement over Glee, the tour did phenomenal, Hard Candy sold well by today's standards, etc.

[Guest nothingfails0603]

outside of 4M I only hear pop on the album?

The album isn't this total hip hop sellout some see it as, but there are other tracks here that are definitely r&b/hip hop sounding. If another artist besides Madonna did "Candy Shop", it would've been accepted as an urban record. Same with Devil Wouldn't Recognize You, very r&b considering it's practically a rewrite of "What Goes Around Comes Around", a song Justin has stated in many interviews is an r&b song, not pop.

[cosmic_system]

Well, many fans didn't like Bedtime Stories for the same reasons they don't like Hard Candy now. Big producers, nothing new (after the "underground album" Erotica) etc. Now, 16 years later the album is more appreciated because it's old (nothing more nothing less), just like I'm sure many Like A Prayer fans hated Erotica back in the day but now are in love with it. It's just history repeating itself to me. The same with American Life. Now almost everybody here wants that Madonna (from American Life) back when I remember the story was very different on madonnamad in 2003/2004 (she's boring, kabbalah crap, horrible album and sound, she's losing it etc).

[Apples388]

Who wants American Life Madonna back?

[GimmeSomeMo]

Well, many fans didn't like Bedtime Stories for the same reasons they don't like Hard Candy now. Big producers, nothing new (after the "underground album" Erotica) etc. Now, 16 years later the album is more appreciated because it's old (nothing more nothing less), just like I'm sure many Like A Prayer fans hated Erotica back in the day but now are in love with it. It's just history repeating itself to me. The same with American Life. Now almost everybody here wants that Madonna (from American Life) back when I remember the story was very different on madonnamad in 2003/2004 (she's boring, kabbalah crap, horrible album and sound, she's losing it etc).

We had the BS/HC debate the other day but while BS was her PLEASE LIKE ME AGAIN album and I can see why some may have resented it as such, to compare its lush melodies and vocals to Hard Candys soulless 808 drum patterns is an insult to music.

[cosmic_system]

The album isn't this total hip hop sellout some see it as, but there are other tracks here that are definitely r&b/hip hop sounding. If another artist besides Madonna did "Candy Shop", it would've been accepted as an urban record. Same with Devil Wouldn't Recognize You, very r&b considering it's practically a rewrite of "What Goes Around Comes Around", a song Justin has stated in many interviews is an r&b song, not pop.

But the same happened with BS. I dislike the production of the Timbaland songs on HC (not the songs, but the production) but Pharrell did a GREAT job to me. I don't get all the hate because it's not like she did a metal album, she did something (urban/hip hop pop) that she did already and it was accepted (or at least it's not accepted). She worked on BS with BIG producers that worked before her with the ENEMY OF THE MADONNA FANS Mariah, Whitney etc. And what about the David Foster era? Madonna working, 15 years ago, with a Celine Dion producer.

[Guest nothingfails0603]

Well, many fans didn't like Bedtime Stories for the same reasons they don't like Hard Candy now. Big producers, nothing new (after the "underground album" Erotica) etc. Now, 16 years later the album is more appreciated because it's old (nothing more nothing less), just like I'm sure many Like A Prayer fans hated Erotica back in the day but now are in love with it. It's just history repeating itself to me. The same with American Life. Now almost everybody here wants that Madonna (from American Life) back when I remember the story was very different on madonnamad in 2003/2004 (she's boring, kabbalah crap, horrible album and sound, she's losing it etc).

yea, I remember even in 2008 being in the tiny minority in actually thinking American Life was a great album

[cosmic_system]

Who wants American Life Madonna back?

Go and read Acko's post about that french interview.

[GimmeSomeMo]

Who wants American Life Madonna back?

And yes while some may appreciate American Life's (occasionally clunky) soul searching in light of Madonna's recent MY SUGAR IS RAW malarkey, I don't see anyone claiming the album is anything better than Music b-sides musically and I seriously doubt anyone wants a repeat.

[Flip The Switch]

yea, I remember even in 2008 being in the tiny minority in actually thinking American Life was a great album

It is.

[GimmeSomeMo]

But the same happened with BS. I dislike the production of the Timbaland songs on HC (not the songs, but the production) but Pharrell did a GREAT job to me. I don't get all the hate because it's not like she did a metal album, she did something (urban/hip hop pop) that she did already and it was accepted (or at least it's not accepted). She worked on BS with BIG producers that worked before her with the ENEMY OF THE MADONNA FANS Mariah, Whitney etc. And what about the David Foster era? Madonna working, 15 years ago, with a Celine Dion producer.

But its not about the producers but about the actual MUSIC? Oh God, this turned into another Hard Candy debate *Kurt420s HC batsignal shines in the sky*

[Flip The Switch]

[Guest nothingfails0603]

We had the BS/HC debate the other day but while BS was her PLEASE LIKE ME AGAIN album and I can see why some may have resented it as such, to compare its lush melodies and vocals to Hard Candys soulless 808 drum patterns is an insult to music.

This is true, I agree. BS was her saving her ass after the backlash of SEX that could've spelled the end of her as a relevant entertainer. HC sounded better on paper than it did on cd. Timbaland and Pharrell have produced some great music but some of the tracks on the album were her most utterly forgettable songs to date and were beneath her standards. Although I dislike "Candy Shop", Pharrell's work on the album shits over Tim's IMO.

[Flip The Switch]

We had the BS/HC debate the other day but while BS was her PLEASE LIKE ME AGAIN album and I can see why some may have resented it as such, to compare its lush melodies and vocals to Hard Candys soulless 808 drum patterns is an insult to music.

THIS

[cosmic_system]

We had the BS/HC debate the other day but while BS was her PLEASE LIKE ME AGAIN album and I can see why some may have resented it as such, to compare its lush melodies and vocals to Hard Candys soulless 808 drum patterns is an insult to music.

It's soulless to you. Of course we are talking about two different albums even if both are urban/pop. I myself prefer BS, but Hard Candy is a fun album with interesting lyrics (no, I'm not talking about Candy Shop) and I take it for what it is. The vocals aren't worse than the Confessions vocals really, and to me both album are on the same lever. One is more europe friendly (well, euro gay friendly), the other one more america friendly.

The last album that really did something for me was American Life but I enjoyed both Confessions and Hard.

[cosmic_system]

But its not about the producers but about the actual MUSIC? Oh God, this turned into another Hard Candy debate *Kurt420s HC batsignal shines in the sky*

Let me quote suedhead:

The reason why most critics had an "issue" (if you will) with her collaborating with Timberland/Timberlake and Pharrell was that she was following an old, somewhat tired sound rather than setting the trend herself, which is what she is known for in the mainstream media.

So, I was talking about that.

Anyway, in 1994/1995 for most people she was already OVER and OLD.

[Supernatural]

I don't wanna get into the HC debate again.

Erotica was a backlash because people that would normally like her were sick of her and turned off by Sex. American Life was a flop which is people just thinking it's shit and not caring.

[StrikeItUp]

Madonna's been working with black musicians since her early NYC days. I don't think Timba and Pharrel's race had much to do with it, as it was the quality of their musical contribution. IMO, the well in Tim's "innovative" (read: STOLEN) music had been run dry by that point. The Pharrell sessions were much better by comparison.

I don't think there's a backlash at this point. Most of the public and media recognize Madonna for what she contributed and have treated her with legendary status. She's always referenced in pop culture (whether it's through one of Gaga's bastardizations of her work, or by other pop stars).

It's just that she probably won't get the same amount of accolades and commercial success as she gets older, it happens. I've learned to accept it. The point is she created a quite a legacy that other acts today wish they could ever do; and that's the problem they'll face because their lasting legacy in pop culture will always go back to The Madonna Template.

[Guest nothingfails0603]

I don't know if "backlash" is the right word to describe Madonna's situation these days, but something negative is there. You can't have her name mentioned on Chelsea Lately without the panelists cracking jokes about her age and the sort. You see a generation of people who call her "grandma" as if she's Betty White's age. People are so quick to talk about how irrelevant she is when discussing her (forgetting the irony that if she's truly that irrelevant they wouldn't be talking about it). She gets a lot of shit about her age that other artists don't get.

It isn't 1992-93 when everyone had an extreme opinion of either love or hate, and it isn't 2003 where she was seen as "anti-American". It's just where it seems to be a popular opinion to think Madonna's an old hag who needs to go to the nursing home already (funny thing is that someone like Mick Jagger or Paul McCartney don't receive this sort of disrespect at their respective ages. Nobody says that Jagger pushing 70 needs to hang it up). She never received this much disrespect circa ROL or Music.

Especially since MJ died, it seems like Madonna now gets the brunt of negative press and attention that they used to give Michael but can't now because they immediately canonized him once he died, like they will when M goes.

[Guest]

Isn't it weird though that in 2002/2003/2004 all the divas had flops?

American Life - Madonna

Charmbracelet - Mariah carey

Just Whitney - Whitney houston

Damita Jo - Janet Jackson

Just makes ya think

[Supernatural]

I have groups of friends that don't listen to pop music but always say Madonna is a legend and all that... back in the 80/90's it was that she was a slut etc... I think people generally respect her now. And no one I know would even know about the cheeks and all that Perez Hilton type junk.

[Supernatural]

Isn't it weird though that in 2002/2003/2004 all the divas had flops?

American Life - Madonna

Charmbracelet - Mariah carey

Just Whitney - Whitney houston

Damita Jo - Janet Jackson

Just makes ya think

some of them are still flopping!