Shane Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 SECRET is the one song that should have been a mega classic..It always seems so forgotten That songs is just pure class. One of my favorites, too! I don't think it's forgotten, though: GHV2 and now Celebration, plus the Drowned World Tour. And most people seem to know that song, or at least that's my impression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Topaz Scorpio Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 Wait let's not get crazy here. I like Bedtime Stories. Well, half of it. I just hate the adult contemporary crap like Take A Bow, Don't Stop, I'd Rather Be Your Lover, etc. Just bad. ?????? I wouldn't classify "I'd Rather Be Your Lover" (R&B funk) and "Don't Stop" (disco) as adult contemporary. The only songs that would really fall into that category from the album would be TAB, "Forbidden Love", "Love Tried To Welcome Me" (one of her most gorgeous tracks EVER), and maybe "Inside of Me". I've always enjoyed ballad Madonna as it showed a different, more vulnerable side to her. I think that's why the public has responded well to them also. I mean look at how "Rain", "I'll Remember", "Take A Bow", and "You'll See" were successful in the wake of the whole Sex backlash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ai Papi Si. Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 ?????? I wouldn't classify "I'd Rather Be Your Lover" (R&B funk) and "Don't Stop" (disco) as adult contemporary. Adult contemporary isn't a musical style as far as I know. Don't Stop and I'd Rather Be Your Lover both fit into that "easy listening" muzak blahness to me, which is why I hate them. Don't Stop doesn't sound like disco to me, it just sounds like a piece of shit as does I'd Rather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nicolas Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 I'm so bummed "Dear Jessie" was left out. Such a cute video! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HolidayGuy Posted August 31, 2009 Author Share Posted August 31, 2009 ^DJ's video fit the song very well- though I'd say the track itself is superior to the video. While the song and lyrics are cute, it's all about the track's classical sound- fitting that it's on the LAP album, at that. The video gets the job done, though- and Fairy Madonna is cute. They probably didn't want a video on there, though, where live-action M doesn't appear at all. (if the original GT is on the DVD, that's live-action M just with the look of a "cartoon") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svperstar Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 I'm rather surprised by the tracklisting of the DVD (notably because it includes so MANY and yet manages to prevent itself from being complete by just a mere smidgeon), but at least what it does is guarantee that we will own almost ALL of her videos in five DVDs, so I can't complain too much. *preorders* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Now that you mention it, it's indeed weird how the producer is not credited as a writer on half of the album. Reportedly the final version of "Skin" was a major departure from the original version and supposedly Patrick Leonard hated it, but Orbit did not do enough to be a co-writer? I understand that Mirwais would not be needed to be credited for writing "Nothing Fails" or "X-Static" process because he basically just played the guitar there and those songs would sound the same without him, but I can't really use the same argument for Orbit and the songs "Skin" or "The Power Of Good-Bye"... Yeah, that's what surprised me. What I started to write in that post was that I didn't understand how she'd be upset about Nellee getting writing credit, when Marius DeVries would get credit on "Skin" -- but I was WRONG! I can't believe that, because, I had heard (like you) that "Skin" was greatly changed. Surprising. (Although, I know some of what Marius brought to the table was, like, a recording of that Middle Eastern flute sound that you hear toward the end of "Skin" -- he recorded it in a market somewhere, I think I read. But, in that case, it's not a composition he WROTE, he just recorded it. So maybe he didn't want writing credit for that. I still remember seeing a clip from MTV News online about the making/recording of Ray of Light, and her singing "Skin" in the studio, with her headphones on and singing into the microphone. And she stops and goes, "That wasn't right, was it Marius? I know that wasn't right..." I don't know why, I just thought it was cute. She is a perfectionist in lots of ways.) In the case of TPOG, I don't know that I agree. I think the song in the demo sounds so similar to the final that no writing credit would need to be given to Orbit. Don't get me wrong -- I think Orbit did tremendous work on it, and the song benefits hugely from his studio embellishments. But the song structure didn't really even change (if memory serves). The lush string arrangement is probably the biggest addition -- but that was courtesy of Craig Armstrong. Now, "No Substitute for Love" really did make a big transition to DW/SFL. I mean, I think the message of the song might have been clearer (to my mind) with the demo version of the lyrics in the chorus. But the instrumentation on the demo was very clunky and even the sense of rhythm on it was totally different from the final version. (I feel like the beat was shifted or something.) But you can see how the lyrics for other parts didn't change much in that song (like my favorite part -- the "no famous faces / far off places") -- just the delivery of them. (Still, that can contribute to melodic changes, etc., which might warrant a writing credit.) And -- tellingly -- William Orbit DOES get writing credit on DW/SFL. It seems to me -- and I could be wrong -- that Madonna is ultimately fair about writing credits. When someone brings that to the table for a particular song, she doesn't cheat them. (Because, with her status, she probably couldn't get away with it in the end. Maybe once or twice, but not if she did that as her standard operating procedure. So she's fair -- either because that's what she chooses to do, or because it makes good business sense.) Yes, there was the Shep thing with "Secret" -- but I think that might have been a case of Madonna had her lyrics, she tried it with Shep and it didn't work. But he felt like he had helped evolve the song or something, so he felt she owed that to him. Whether or not he was right in an objective sense. I think there's an interview out there with Tony Shimkin who has nothing but good things to say about Madonna (except that she's a little impatient -- and he even had to tell her to go eat some popcorn until he finished something, but she respected him after that). However, he indicated that he perhaps should have gotten some writing credit on some Erotica tracks, but he wasn't given any. And he says it wasn't Madonna's fault, but someone else's (though he refuses to say who? -- I guess Shep? I'm not sure.). So -- maybe I'm wrong, maybe Madonna isn't exactly overly generous with the writing credits. But that's my general impression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryan Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 I think there's an interview out there with Tony Shimkin who has nothing but good things to say about Madonna (except that she's a little impatient -- and he even had to tell her to go eat some popcorn until he finished something, but she respected him after that). However, he indicated that he perhaps should have gotten some writing credit on some Erotica tracks, but he wasn't given any. And he says it wasn't Madonna's fault, but someone else's (though he refuses to say who? -- I guess Shep? I'm not sure.). So -- maybe I'm wrong, maybe Madonna isn't exactly overly generous with the writing credits. But that's my general impression. This is from a Mtribe interview. I remember him saying how Shep asked him what track he would like to receive a writing credit for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 This is from a Mtribe interview. I remember him saying how Shep asked him what track he would like to receive a writing credit for. Yeah, thanks... I knew it was either there or Drowned Madonna. Couldn't remember which. (They so often interview the same people, it seems...) I just looked at Erotica (album) and Tony got writing credit on Deeper & Deeper. (Is THAT why it didn't make it onto CELEBRATION? Haha!) So, I guess he's saying that when Shep asked him that, Shep was conveying that his (Tony's) work was only worthy of one writing credit, when he really should have been able to get writing credit on all of the songs he worked on? But I think he said he didn't know enough at the time to know what he really deserved in the way of credit. That is a shame. But he chose wisely in choosing "Deeper & Deeper." (imo... Not that the others are bad, I think that's just the one I would have picked, too.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supernatural Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 I'm pretty sure I've read Tony say Shep screwed him... Dear Jessie, except for the scene with the Madonna fairy or whatever, always looked to me like they got the footage from some other cartoon and just set the music to it. Not much rhyme or reason for a very descriptive song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Now that you mention it, it's indeed weird how the producer is not credited as a writer on half of the album. Reportedly the final version of "Skin" was a major departure from the original version and supposedly Patrick Leonard hated it, but Orbit did not do enough to be a co-writer? I understand that Mirwais would not be needed to be credited for writing "Nothing Fails" or "X-Static" process because he basically just played the guitar there and those songs would sound the same without him, but I can't really use the same argument for Orbit and the songs "Skin" or "The Power Of Good-Bye"... The songs existed with melodies and lyrics before Orbit and there weren't enough material changes to the melody or lyrics to warrant a credit. The Power of Goodbye is pretty clear cut (judging by the demo it was already a done deal), but in the case of "Skin", we can only assume Orbit took Madonna and Pat's tune and "remixed" it (i.e. made a dance track based on the music of the original song), and madonna likely sang her vocals to that. Perhaps she adlibbed over certain parts that weren't there before, but they were all based on the melody of the original song. Producers often have a huge impact on the end-result of a song, but that doesn't mean they are guaranteed or entitled to a credit. often times, an agreement has already been met between the writers and no one can interfere. Other times it is simply understood that their role as producer includes uncredited song doctoring. Depends on the song I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bluejean Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Producers often have a huge impact on the end-result of a song, but that doesn't mean they are guaranteed or entitled to a credit. Exactly. Producing is crafting the sound of the song. Writing is writing the lyrics and melody/chord structure. Arranging is arranging the instruments. You don't get writing credit for producing or arranging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bluejean Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Producers often have a huge impact on the end-result of a song, but that doesn't mean they are guaranteed or entitled to a credit. Exactly. Producing is crafting the sound of the song. Writing is writing the lyrics and melody. Arranging is arranging the instruments. They don't automatically get writing credit, but there are circumstance where they will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Danny86 Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 According to rebecca_carlson of MFanzine, Celebration will be up on iTunes for pre-order tomorrow and "It's So Cool" will appear there as digital bonus track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mightycomfort Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Danny is the iTunes pre order /extra song going to be available in the uk too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Danny86 Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 I guess so, he didn't specify any country, but it will probably be like "Ring My Bell", only available during the pre-order period on every iTunes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mightycomfort Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Thankyou. Can't wait to pre order this. I've noticed that my friends who are non Madonna fans seem far more excited than us fans about the Celebration album. I'm really expexting huge numbers in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carta Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Oh my apologies but I do live in Australia, where I once picked up GHV2 for $4.95 (the cheapest you can get a CD in this country) I've bought CDs for $2 before, so $4.95 is definitely not the cheapest you can get a CD in this country...! Michael Jackson's entire catalogue (with the exception of a couple of 2CD sets) is available for $9.95 per release (The Definitive is available for $11.49 and it's a 2CD collection!).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carta Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Regarding producers receiving writer's credits, remember that Nile Rodgers didn't get a single writer's credit for Like A Virgin, yet he was chosen specifically to give the album a certain sound (which, as bluejean pointed out, is exactly what production is all about). From memory, the only producer that Madonna has worked with since Nile who wasn't also a songwriter was Nellee Hooper, who was brought in to try to give Bedtime Stories some sort of cohesive sound (since Madonna had worked with so many different producers that the final product was lacking cohesion, apparently). Clearly, Madonna prefers working with songwriters who are also producers, possibly because that's exactly what she is herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Danny86 Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Regarding producers receiving writer's credits, remember that Nile Rodgers didn't get a single writer's credit for Like A Virgin, yet he was chosen specifically to give the album a certain sound (which, as bluejean pointed out, is exactly what production is all about). From memory, the only producer that Madonna has worked with since Nile who wasn't also a songwriter was Nellee Hooper, who was brought in to try to give Bedtime Stories some sort of cohesive sound (since Madonna had worked with so many different producers that the final product was lacking cohesion, apparently). Clearly, Madonna prefers working with songwriters who are also producers, possibly because that's exactly what she is herself. That's a very good point about Nile Rodgers, which made me realize Reggie Lucas is also a good example for this: he produced the majority of the debut yet he's only credited as a writer for the songs he wrote by himself ("Borderline" & "Physical Attraction") but for the rest Madonna herself remained the sole songwriter. As for Nellee, he did not get a writer credit for "Survival" or "Forbidden Love" even though he's the only producer listed, yet for "Inside Of Me" he did (I assume because he reworked Dave Hall's version radically, removing some of the samples even?) and "Bedtime Story" but that was written without Madonna but with Bjork and Marius, so that one's a different story. Knowing that, I can now see the beef of Nellee with ROL, but I'm still lost when it comes to the Orbit songs. While I can see Zombie's point about "remixing" an already existing track, it still confuses me to think "Skin" or "Sky Fits Heaven" were the same songs just without the electronica-bleeps, but "Drowned World" was different enough to get Orbit credited... Maybe it has to do something with the process? Orbit and Nellee are usually not credited as songwriters when they rework a song *after* Madonna wrote the lyrics, yet when Madonna gets an instrumental and writes the lyrics over it (like Shep or Stuart stuff), the producer is instantly a songwriter. Does it mean if Madonna brought a Patrick Leonard composition to Stuart or Oakenfold and they put a dance beat under it (the same way Orbit did it with "Skin"), their contribution would not be enough to be called as "songwriting?" Then again, Nellee & "Inside Of Me" does not support this theory... On top of all that, I checked the booklet of Gwen's first album and while Nellee Hooper is credited as a producer for several songs, he's never listed as a songwriter, for example "What You Waiting For" is credited to Gwen and Linda Perry only... It makes me wonder if these stuff always represents the actual contribution, or it's decided via an agreement of all the people contributing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pud Whacker Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Regarding producers receiving writer's credits, remember that Nile Rodgers didn't get a single writer's credit for Like A Virgin, yet he was chosen specifically to give the album a certain sound (which, as bluejean pointed out, is exactly what production is all about). From memory, the only producer that Madonna has worked with since Nile who wasn't also a songwriter was Nellee Hooper, who was brought in to try to give Bedtime Stories some sort of cohesive sound (since Madonna had worked with so many different producers that the final product was lacking cohesion, apparently). Clearly, Madonna prefers working with songwriters who are also producers, possibly because that's exactly what she is herself. and reggie lucas minus the songs he did write. however, i do think with physical attraction she wrote that and he totally reworked it and got complete credit. because on that ASCPA SHYT she has original writing credit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HolidayGuy Posted August 31, 2009 Author Share Posted August 31, 2009 Album supposedly will be available for pre-order on iTunes starting tomorrow. Will it spark interest in "Celebration" the single? Let the games begin. Probably will have an exclusive track- maybe that "I'm So Cool," that MTribe is speculating about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Danny86 Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 It is "It's So Cool", a registered song written by Madonna, Mirwais and Monte from AL sessions: http://www.warnerchappell.com/wcm_2/song_search/song_detail/songview_2.jsp?esongId=896826400 I guess it's "remixed" by Oakenfold then, since he didn't earn a writer credit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loomer Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 and reggie lucas minus the songs he did write. however, i do think with physical attraction she wrote that and he totally reworked it and got complete credit. because on that ASCPA SHYT she has original writing credit. Yeah there was some sort of credits deal with Physical Attraction. Same with Bray and Ain't No Big Deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acko Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Okay so I only half read this thread...but these beatmaker-producers obviously get writing credits cuz they come with the sonic textures/soundscapes 2 which M then sings her lyrics/melodies..& then I edit it & shape it etc.. . As far as her debut is concerned..there r reports of M not being satisfied with the result saying it sounded like an aerobics record& so She went in there & stripped down the sound..so I'm guessing Lucas got a writing credit 4 PA by means of compensation 4 his ego..I bet they even played him making him believe it would b a proper A-side release.. anyway is this dude still alive..if so..someone interview him. Plus she played the cowbell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattress Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Plus she played the cowbell Ahem, "cowbelle". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loomer Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 At least with Celebration she's kind of reembraced the first album. Many people now say it's her best, like Neil Tennant and Maria Carey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genevieve Vavance Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Ahem, "cowbelle". omg, what's this ?? :lmao: a mimi doll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryan Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Yeah, thanks... I knew it was either there or Drowned Madonna. Couldn't remember which. (They so often interview the same people, it seems...) I just looked at Erotica (album) and Tony got writing credit on Deeper & Deeper. (Is THAT why it didn't make it onto CELEBRATION? Haha!) So, I guess he's saying that when Shep asked him that, Shep was conveying that his (Tony's) work was only worthy of one writing credit, when he really should have been able to get writing credit on all of the songs he worked on? But I think he said he didn't know enough at the time to know what he really deserved in the way of credit. That is a shame. But he chose wisely in choosing "Deeper & Deeper." (imo... Not that the others are bad, I think that's just the one I would have picked, too.) I would of thought he'd go with Why's It So Hard, since he lends his vocals on that track Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryan Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 looks like i'll shelve out some money for this digital release. I just LOVE those korny outtakes that get released. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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