Madonna being referenced heavily in news coverage of Jackson's death

[Etips]

you had me until your last line. he raised it ONCE. in 1983. after that he REPLICATED that. madonna continued to up it. in fact he was the biggest star - the highest you could go UNTIL her.

she upped the ante on stardom that then everyone had to work for, if thats what they wanted...

Michael didn’t continually revolutionize music videos after 1984, but he didn’t need to after having already done it. Following his raising the bar, however, he tended to be more consistent in making videos that maintained a certain level of majesty. While Madonna tends to average two especially spectacular music videos per album, in amongst them she also has a higher number of clips that are tedious and ordinary. Michael, by and large, hasn’t had (m)any as mundane or unremarkable as “Who’s That Girl,” “Fever,” “Love Profusion,” “Jump,” or “Give It 2 Me.”

Madonna’s made a plethora of music videos that have either caused controversy, had stunning cinematography, or both…and she’s certainly made a large number that have been outstanding/significant/iconic—so many, in fact, that it ultimately makes her a pioneer of the form. True. However, at no point has she ever revolutionized, or raised the bar, of the medium itself. Instead she’s co-opted multiple elements of what had already been innovated, added her personality to it, and from there charismatically ascended to the front of the line. The ‘quality’ of her product is generally top notch, but she’s never forever changed the way they were made or viewed the way Michael did with “Thriller.”

[MadFan]

Michael didn’t continually revolutionize music videos after 1984, but he didn’t need to after having already done it. Following his raising the bar, however, he tended to be more consistent in making videos that maintained a certain level of majesty. While Madonna tends to average two especially spectacular music videos per album, in amongst them she also has a higher number of clips that are tedious and ordinary. Michael, by and large, hasn’t had (m)any as mundane or unremarkable as “Who’s That Girl,” “Fever,” “Love Perfusion,” “Jump,” or “Give It 2 Me.”

Madonna’s made a plethora of music videos that have either caused controversy, had stunning cinematography, or both…and she’s certainly made a large number that have been outstanding/significant/iconic—so many, in fact, that it ultimately makes her a pioneer of the form. True. However, at no point has she ever revolutionized, or raised the bar, of the medium itself. Instead she’s co-opted multiple elements of what had already been innovated, added her personality to it, and from there charismatically ascended to the front of the line. The ‘quality’ of her product is generally top notch, but she’s never forever changed the way they were made or viewed the way Michael did with “Thriller.”

:clap:

[loomer]

Michael, by and large, hasn’t had (m)any as mundane or unremarkable as “Who’s That Girl,” “Fever,” “Love Perfusion,”

Those are fabulous!

[Guest nothingfails0603]

It's M/M, P for me. Love Prince but doesn't compare to those two for me.

I do think of the three, Prince's catalog is probably the most ultimately frustrating, because while some of his best work (Purple Rain, SOTT, 1999, Dirty Mind) is up there with the best Michael or Madonna ever put out, he's also put out loads of crap in his career. Madonna nor Michael have ever unleashed anything as bad as Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic on the world. I think MJ had a problem with being too meticulous in the studio and crafting a song longer than most artists can do an album AND tour -- which explains why he had so little output in such a long career, but Prince sometimes would just put too much out for his own good as well. When Prince could touch gold, he was able to put out a number of great albums at once (just look at 1984 when he gave us Purple Rain, The Time's Ice Cream Castles, Apollonia 6 and Sheila E's The Glamorous Life all within a three month period, all of which he wrote every track and played on) but he wasn't quite as good in the 90's. I will always be a bigger Prince fan than MJ because I feel like Prince has done a better job living up to his original promise and like Madonna, there's a Prince song for every possible mood, but I can understand why a lot of people prefer MJ, he was more accessible and no matter how "weird" his image got, it never translated onto album (even though I thought Prince recorded some of his best music when he was "weird and pretentious").

[Guest Coked Up Baby Boy]

Michael didn’t continually revolutionize music videos after 1984, but he didn’t need to after having already done it. Following his raising the bar, however, he tended to be more consistent in making videos that maintained a certain level of majesty. While Madonna tends to average two especially spectacular music videos per album, in amongst them she also has a higher number of clips that are tedious and ordinary. Michael, by and large, hasn’t had (m)any as mundane or unremarkable as “Who’s That Girl,” “Fever,” “Love Perfusion,” “Jump,” or “Give It 2 Me.”

Madonna’s made a plethora of music videos that have either caused controversy, had stunning cinematography, or both…and she’s certainly made a large number that have been outstanding/significant/iconic—so many, in fact, that it ultimately makes her a pioneer of the form. True. However, at no point has she ever revolutionized, or raised the bar, of the medium itself. Instead she’s co-opted multiple elements of what had already been innovated, added her personality to it, and from there charismatically ascended to the front of the line. The ‘quality’ of her product is generally top notch, but she’s never forever changed the way they were made or viewed the way Michael did with “Thriller.”

WAH WAH WE WAH

[peter]

It's interesting. I think part of it also has to do with vulnerability, weakness and warmth. Michael, Diana, Marilyn, Judy (and Elvis to a certain extent) had an air of tragedy and fragility and I think the public felt an unconscious sense of responsibility in a strange way. It's the chink in their armour that let the public in and it's this weakness that ensured their public's forgiveness.

It's harder with Madonna, she's a fighter, she's tough, viewed as cold, calculating and wily. She's a strong woman, her armour seems impenetrable, it doesn't have that chink and she doesn't have that air of tragedy the public so loves. In dealing so heavily in sex and religion she's also alienated a sizeable portion of the public. Madonna's also always working and isn't nostalgic which doesn't give people an opportunity to take stock and evaluate her body of work.

In death I do think she'll be revered, gaining recognition for her work and for being the icon that she is. Without wanting to sound like a cunt, there's also an historical and social context to much of Madonna's work that will become clearer with the distance of time.

Well said! And the part I bolded -- I hope you're right (although I don't want it to be any time soon). I don't know I feel this way today (yesterday I was less analytical of all the media coverage) -- but it makes me think that if Madonna lives a long life (and I hope she does!!!), she might NOT get this kind of outpouring of grief and media frenzy. Simply because she didn't die young enough. And that would be fine with me -- but people better darn well give her proper credit at some point. I don't need to see outrageous displays of grief, but they better respect her. (I know I'll certainly shed some tears, though...) Whatever -- I feel like what I'm saying is a little weird, so I'll stop there...

Come on, "Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough," "Billie Jean," "Beat It," "Thriller," "Bad," "The Way You Make Me Feel," "Dirty Diana," "Smooth Criminal," "Black or White," "Remember the Time," "In the Closet," "Jam" and "Scream" are ALL iconic videos, even today. Obviously love Madonna, but Michael puts her to the ground and nails her coffin SHUT if we're talking music videos/short films. He truly redefined the term. Let's be objective here.

I don't mean to beat a dead horse -- but I think, objectively, you have to give both MJ and Madonna credit. He doesn't easily blow her out of the water by any stretch of the imagination.

Thriller was a huge event, yes. And obviously MJ went for EPIC with EVERY video. And I think the problem there is, not everything he was doing was worthy of being EPIC. By that I mean "overblown." Madonna's always been a good editor, I think ... And many directors have said as much. She has an eye. MJ never knew what to sacrifice. He had to have the elaborate set-up intro -- hello, Macauley Culkin in "Black or White" -- AND the storyline narrative AND the breakdown dance section. In full. I mean, Madonna could use all those devices (and did), but did it without bloating the video to an overly long running time. (Don't get me wrong -- I think that works sometimes. But maybe not all the time with every video. I like the idea of a mini-film: Thriller, obviously. Gwen's What You Waiting For? has a nice uncut version. And even Lady Gaga's Paparazzi is interesting in its full length version. But not every video needs that.)

Overblown worked for Thriller. I think he could have tightened up many of the others and they would have been stronger for it. I re-watched "Remember the Time" last night (love Iman, dahling!) -- but it seemed ... I don't know, overly done. And the effects haven't aged well in many of the videos, it seems. (But even a classic like "Like a Prayer" has an unfortunately limited effects moment -- the "falling through the sky" and being caught by the Gospel singer to be released up again like a balloon... The only moment that doesn't seem quite so perfectly executed... but I digress.)

I don't even want to debate this anymore, all I'm saying is that Michael Jackson is known more for making iconic (not necessarily good - that is, like Pud said, taste) videos while Madonna is known more for consistently good albums yet managing to reinvent herself.

I don't mean to be overly disagreeable... because I think you make some valid points ... but I think there are a lot of people in the general public who would say her IMAGE (i.e., in music videos) was her selling point. Mostly for being sexual. And then they'd say the music was secondary or not as high quality or of artistic merit as others. (I do NOT espouse that belief at all -- I would vehemently argue against it. But that's what I hear people say about her. They are dismissive of her music and think it was her sex that sold everything. SO wrong, but...) So my point here is that some would give her the worst back-handed compliment, but it would still affirm how important her videos were.

But "Bedtime Story" wasn't advanced for 1995? And I think it got a lot more recognition than "Scream", VMAs or not, "BS" got a place in the Museum of Modern Arts.

I can only echo what NF said: just because MJ was way ahead with videos when Madonna started out, it doesn't mean Madonna always stayed behind. By 1989, Madonna evolved into a video artist with doing stuff that were unimaginable at the start of her career, while MJ was never able to top "Thriller" or bring something entirely new into his videography.

Thank you for bringing up "Bedtime Story" being in MOMA. That and NIN "Closer" are the two music videos in the permanent collection. Both are directed by Mark Romanek. (And so is "Scream" -- but it's not in MOMA. And I'm not saying that to be a jerk... I'm just saying that the comparison to artwork is apt. Some painters' works hang in some museums, and some works hang in others.)

But if we're talking PURE success, the Bad Tour outsold The WTG tour by a longshot, and was the highest grossing tour by a solo artist EVER. Seriously, this is so ridiculous - it's absurd to think that one ruled the '80s while the other didn't. Look at their awards, really. One didn't "longshot" another, end of. When you think of the '80s, you think of ALL these iconic things, so you're wrong.

THANK YOU for saying that. Someone was saying today that there is NO ONE that will ever touch Michael's level of fame and superstardom and artistry, etc. How the '80s were ALL about MJ and "everyone had a red leather jacket." And I was thinking in my head... Umm... wait, Madonna's still alive. And there were a lot of Madonna-wannabes. (I never had a red leather jacket... but I did wear those rubber jelly bracelets! haha!) They were both icons of the '80s. He had a childhood career, and Madonna's adult career is showing more longevity now than his adult career, but at the end of the day -- it doesn't matter.

I'm grateful Madonna's still here and active and talented. (I'm not saying that at the expense of MJ!! Not in the least! I'm just saying, it reminds me to be grateful.)

[Guest nothingfails0603]

THANK YOU for saying that. Someone was saying today that there is NO ONE that will ever touch Michael's level of fame and superstardom and artistry, etc. How the '80s were ALL about MJ and "everyone had a red leather jacket." And I was thinking in my head... Umm... wait, Madonna's still alive. And there were a lot of Madonna-wannabes. (I never had a red leather jacket... but I did wear those rubber jelly bracelets! haha!) They were both icons of the '80s. He had a childhood career, and Madonna's adult career is showing more longevity now than his adult career, but at the end of the day -- it doesn't matter.

I'm grateful Madonna's still here and active and talented. (I'm not saying that at the expense of MJ!! Not in the least! I'm just saying, it reminds me to be grateful.)

There were several major superstars in the 80's. MJ, Madonna, Prince, Bruce, Whitney, Cyndi, Boy George, Duran Duran, Janet, U2 and several others. But I think this is mainly because this is Michael's moment as he just passed and we're remembering his impact and not so much about the others who are still here (just look at the common misconception out now that MJ was the first black artist ever played on MTV... I understand we're paying homage to MJ but do we need to slight Prince who was getting heavy rotation with "1999" three months before Billie Jean went to MTV?) but I think right now we're just trying to remember the good. And while the 1980's had several major icons that define the decade, MJ is certainly one of them.

[Guest dicktracy]

QUOTE (dicktracy @ Jun 26 2009, 02:05 PM)

Once again Madonna was not a pioneer but a follower that outmastered the artist before her. He was the first to fully utilize the medium (music videos/MTV) but in the end she profited the longest and arguably the most from it.

As great a video artist MJ was and as much as he added to the artform and medium, I do think people get a little carried away saying that videos were non-existant before him. Queen, ABBA, Blondie, Rod Stewart, David Bowie, Elton John amongst others were making videos for every single released in the mid/late 70's when MTV was a concept unheard of. True most of the early videos were very primitive but there were some great ones in the pre-MTV batch like "Ashes To Ashes" or Elton's "Ego" that could've held it's own against most of what was out five years later when MTV was in full swing.

I haven't heard anybody say that. He took it to another level and Madonna mastered it to her advantage.

[mnation09]

MJ might have technically raised the bar as far as music videos go with thriller but Madonna was the one who grabbed the bar and ran with it.. she made MTV her own and was catapulted to worldwide fame from her videos.. definitely apples and oranges.

RIP MJ

[Guest dicktracy]

There were several major superstars in the 80's. MJ, Madonna, Prince, Bruce, Whitney, Cyndi, Boy George, Duran Duran, Janet, U2 and several others. But I think this is mainly because this is Michael's moment as he just passed and we're remembering his impact and not so much about the others who are still here (just look at the common misconception out now that MJ was the first black artist ever played on MTV... I understand we're paying homage to MJ but do we need to slight Prince who was getting heavy rotation with "1999" three months before Billie Jean went to MTV?) but I think right now we're just trying to remember the good. And while the 1980's had several major icons that define the decade, MJ is certainly one of them.

I think that only Jackson, Prince, Lionel Ritchie, Madonna, Whitney, WHAM/George Michael, U2 and Janet Jackson could have been considered superstars in the 80's. I'm not even sure I'd have Ritchie, U2 and Janet in that list.

Anyway, Bruce and Tina both had a huge album (Born In The USA and Private Dancer) but didn't keep their momentum. While Duran Duran, Cyndi and Boy George/Culture Club had no more than 3 years or real chart dominance.

[MadFan]

I don't mean to beat a dead horse -- but I think, objectively, you have to give both MJ and Madonna credit. He doesn't easily blow her out of the water by any stretch of the imagination.

I did give Madonna credit, absolutely. She gave us some wonderful music videos in the '80s - corny as many may be - they were still quintessential parts of my child, teenager, and adulthood. But as far as the medium itself goes, I'm sorry, but Michael's '80s run stands far more iconic than hers. This isn't a measure of quality, but legacy. Some of Madonna's most iconic work was still to come, in the '90s, but this entire discussion has been based solely on the decade beforehand.

Thriller was a huge event, yes. And obviously MJ went for EPIC with EVERY video. And I think the problem there is, not everything he was doing was worthy of being EPIC. By that I mean "overblown." Madonna's always been a good editor, I think ... And many directors have said as much. She has an eye. MJ never knew what to sacrifice. He had to have the elaborate set-up intro -- hello, Macauley Culkin in "Black or White" -- AND the storyline narrative AND the breakdown dance section. In full. I mean, Madonna could use all those devices (and did), but did it without bloating the video to an overly long running time. (Don't get me wrong -- I think that works sometimes. But maybe not all the time with every video. I like the idea of a mini-film: Thriller, obviously. Gwen's What You Waiting For? has a nice uncut version. And even Lady Gaga's Paparazzi is interesting in its full length version. But not every video needs that.)

Overblown worked for Thriller. I think he could have tightened up many of the others and they would have been stronger for it. I re-watched "Remember the Time" last night (love Iman, dahling!) -- but it seemed ... I don't know, overly done. And the effects haven't aged well in many of the videos, it seems. (But even a classic like "Like a Prayer" has an unfortunately limited effects moment -- the "falling through the sky" and being caught by the Gospel singer to be released up again like a balloon... The only moment that doesn't seem quite so perfectly executed... but I digress.)

I understand, but it worked enormously to his success. Whether you or I believe he should've done otherwise is irrelevant, because his videos were events, even if pretentious or downright cocky at times. The public bought in to it and loved it. Video after video was an event on MTV, and stands the test of time much more than Madonna's work, as a whole, during that decade. The videos were so iconic that today's generation, even, has seen and embraced them. Everyone knows "Thriller." Everyone. The dance, the red jacket, is still imitated at dances, on YouTube, etc. The same cannot be said about anything from Madonna's "Like a Prayer", which is undoubtedly her most known video from the '80s. Many know the infamous kiss and the burning crosses, yes, but it never reached "Thriller"'s status. Other than that, I'd argue that she never had any '80s videos that matched "Billie Jean" (the lighting floor which people know), "Beat It," "Bad" or "Smooth Criminal" (the infamous lean) in terms of the same. His idiosyncrasies became trademarked worldwide - the outfits (sequined glove, black loafers, white socks, red jacket), the dance moves (the moonwalk, the lean, the spin)...what of '80s Madonna can be attested for the same? It didn't happen that way, because as I said, her best was yet to come. And again, this isn't a measure of quality, but how their '80s videos stand up in terms of being iconic. This is where I say, yes, Michael cornered the market during that period of time. Madonna was the subordinate.

During the '90s, of course, the entire thing reversed, despite "Thriller" remaining more famous than any of either's video output.

I don't mean to be overly disagreeable... because I think you make some valid points ... but I think there are a lot of people in the general public who would say her IMAGE (i.e., in music videos) was her selling point. Mostly for being sexual. And then they'd say the music was secondary or not as high quality or of artistic merit as others. (I do NOT espouse that belief at all -- I would vehemently argue against it. But that's what I hear people say about her. They are dismissive of her music and think it was her sex that sold everything. SO wrong, but...) So my point here is that some would give her the worst back-handed compliment, but it would still affirm how important her videos were.

That's okay, of course I'd add that to the list. We agree here. On top of her legacy for "reinventing" herself, she also had her sexual image, of course. This is evident in "Like a Prayer," which as I said is easily Madonna's most iconic '80s video.

[Guest nothingfails0603]

I think that only Jackson, Prince, Lionel Ritchie, Madonna, Whitney, WHAM/George Michael, U2 and Janet Jackson could have been considered superstars in the 80's. I'm not even sure I'd have Ritchie, U2 and Janet in that list.

Anyway, Bruce and Tina both had a huge album (Born In The USA and Private Dancer) but didn't keep their momentum. While Duran Duran, Cyndi and Boy George/Culture Club had no more than 3 years or real chart dominance.

Boy George and Cyndi (although I love stuff she's done long since she fell out of chart prominence) were mostly fads, I agree... but they made a very large impact for the moment and are remembered for their significance and impact. Bruce never came near Born In The USA's success, but it was one of the ultimate defining albums of the decade, and much like Prince with Around The World In A Day, he purposely alienated the fairweather fans with Tunnel Of Love. But I would say the success Bruce had between 1984-1986 certainly puts him in that league. When you really think about it, Purple Rain was Prince's only true moment of Michael Jackson-type superstardom, but he was able to maintain a consistant career for the rest of the decade, but the albums that followed in the 80's combined didn't equal Purple Rain's sales. So he with PR is much like Bruce with Born In The USA IMO.

[ROCKERITO_MX]

from univision::

Madonna becomes a widow. The Queen of Pop mourns the death of The King.

[Guest Pud Whacker]

from univision::

Madonna becomes a widow. The Queen of Pop mourns the death of The King.

wow. thats cool.

[Guest dicktracy]

Boy George and Cyndi (although I love stuff she's done long since she fell out of chart prominence) were mostly fads, I agree... but they made a very large impact for the moment and are remembered for their significance and impact. Bruce never came near Born In The USA's success, but it was one of the ultimate defining albums of the decade, and much like Prince with Around The World In A Day, he purposely alienated the fairweather fans with Tunnel Of Love. But I would say the success Bruce had between 1984-1986 certainly puts him in that league. When you really think about it, Purple Rain was Prince's only true moment of Michael Jackson-type superstardom, but he was able to maintain a consistant career for the rest of the decade, but the albums that followed in the 80's combined didn't equal Purple Rain's sales. So he with PR is much like Bruce with Born In The USA IMO.

I agree that Prince never matched PR sales but Michael never matched Thriller's either. I guess Prince deserves a place as an 80's superstar not only for his sales but also for his influence. Plus, he still kept having hits even if his albums were not blockbusters. Now, I'd still consider Bruce a fringe superstar, not quite there. Anyway, in the end, the biggest 80's music artists were Michael, Madonna, Prince, Whitney and George Michael (including his time with WHAM). No one was bigger than these five.

[peter]

I did give Madonna credit, absolutely. She gave us some wonderful music videos in the '80s - corny as many may be - they were still quintessential parts of my child, teenager, and adulthood. But as far as the medium itself goes, I'm sorry, but Michael's '80s run stands far more iconic than hers. This isn't a measure of quality, but legacy. Some of Madonna's most iconic work was still to come, in the '90s, but this entire discussion has been based solely on the decade beforehand.

You did. And I thank you for giving her credit... Sorry if it sounded like I was scolding. I didn't mean to.

On the other hand, I didn't realize we were boxing up the decades in such (no pun intended) black and white terms. I thought we were discussing the complete videos of each artist, and trying to compare (fairly) similar works. I didn't think we were only comparing the videos of the '80s. (I brought up the '80s only as a reference to what I've heard some people say about MJ's cultural relevance -- how he's the ONLY star from the '80s and no one will ever touch that level, etc. etc. Which seems like hyperbole. Sure, he was great. And the musical legacy is impressive. I don't want to deny him that. But seriously, let's not re-write history entirely. Right -- all the other acts you mentioned certainly had their bright moments in the '80s, too. I would say, though, that if I could only pick one male and one female, it would be MJ and Madonna.)

I'd say Madonna's work with Fincher in the late 80s (which spilled into the 90s with "Vogue" -- but was really the tail end of the 80s when you think about it) was pretty iconic, too. And Material Girl and Open Your Heart, as well. Like a Prayer had the controversy, but MG had the Marilyn image reference and OYH. I don't know -- even Borderline (featuring the street urchin look that spawned so many wannabes, and foreshadowing Madonna's lasting relationship with photography/photographers/imagery) and LAV (the bridal dress image and its inseparable link to the infamous MTV performance that everyone always talks about)... Those all can't be discounted so easily. I don't know that I'd hand it to "Like a Prayer" so easily, I guess is what I'm saying. I love the song, and if we were talking about the song alone, I might agree. But I'd probably pick "Vogue" (which was #2 on MTV's Top 100 Video Countdown in 1999 or 2000 -- which was only behind MJ's "Thriller" in the #1 spot, of course) -- but if you're going to limit us to the '80s, well, then, I'd pick "Express Yourself" -- which is undoubtedly cinematic, but without having to elongate the structure of the song excessively.

"Oh Father" and "Cherish" are magical, too. Without "Cherish," Herb Ritts might never have made a music video.

I understand, but it worked enormously to his success. Whether you or I believe he should've done otherwise is irrelevant, because his videos were events, even if pretentious or downright cocky at times. The public bought in to it and loved it. Video after video was an event on MTV, and stands the test of time much more than Madonna's work, as a whole, during that decade. The videos were so iconic that today's generation, even, has seen and embraced them. Everyone knows "Thriller." Everyone. The dance, the red jacket, is still imitated at dances, on YouTube, etc. The same cannot be said about anything from Madonna's "Like a Prayer", which is undoubtedly her most known video from the '80s. Many know the infamous kiss and the burning crosses, yes, but it never reached "Thriller"'s status. Other than that, I'd argue that she never had any '80s videos that matched "Billie Jean" (the lighting floor which people know), "Beat It," "Bad" or "Smooth Criminal" (the infamous lean) in terms of the same. His idiosyncrasies became trademarked worldwide - the outfits (sequined glove, black loafers, white socks, red jacket), the dance moves (the moonwalk, the lean, the spin)...what of '80s Madonna can be attested for the same? It didn't happen that way, because as I said, her best was yet to come. And again, this isn't a measure of quality, but how their '80s videos stand up in terms of being iconic. This is where I say, yes, Michael cornered the market during that period of time. Madonna was the subordinate.

During the '90s, of course, the entire thing reversed, despite "Thriller" remaining more famous than any of either's video output.

Eh, Madonna's videos were events, too. Even for a video like "Bedtime Story" (which, I'll grant, was not the most commercial choice for a single, but obviously delivered a piece of artwork for the video) got a huge pajama party for the premiere... Justify My Love got banned and then got lots of news programming time, plus an airing on network television late at night. Madonna knows from "video events" just like Michael...

And again, I'd say "Vogue" has had a similar lasting impact to "Thriller." People know how to vogue, too. (Or they THINK they do -- LOL!) And it's only because she popularized it. ("Like a Prayer" didn't have a choreographed dance routine -- so it's a bit odd to fault it for not spawning any dance crazes or to criticize the fact that no one remembers any dance moves from it. She danced in religious ecstasy -- which is by definition uncontrolled and not pre-programmed. It fits well with the theme. Again, she didn't feel the need to use every trick in the book for every video, because that's kind of overkill sometimes. "Gilding the lily." Whereas MJ really forced those large dance breaks into everything, to varying degrees of success. If Madonna had done "LAP" the MJ way, she would have used the dance remix version and had a large choreographed routine in the breakdown section in the middle -- but it would have disrupted the dramatic story being told and ultimately would have been a distraction. It wasn't necessary -- it still captured attention and raised ire and all sorts of chaos ensued... cancelled endorsements, etc. etc. And while it's a subjective preference, then, I still say Madonna let the video and the song serve each other in better balance than MJ, who often overrode both with bombast. I mean, seriously, why does "Black or White" *need* the Macauley Culkin intro? What does that have to do with his color-blind message in the song?)

And her outfits were obviously copied, as well. All the girls in tights, with the hair bows and the gloves and the rubber bracelets?

So... sorry. I still don't concede that she was subordinate in the 80s. I think that's an artificial distinction to make. So many of her videos stand the test of time! She used special effects and gimmickry so little that you don't go "oh that looks so dated!" -- she relied on charisma and beauty (that NEVER fades with time when it's captured on film); compelling narrative ideas (pregnant teenager worries about telling her dad!); provocative, timeless themes (religion! sex!); and stylish costumes and choreography. She didn't use all in equal proportions for every project, but all those things don't date so much (except for maybe the costumes -- but even those have either kitschy value -- in the same way MJ's garb does, because who would wear any of that today?!).

[MadFan]

Holy paragraphs! Fabulous.

I think I can boil this down quite simply, to be perfectly honest. If we're talking about both Michael and Madonna's works as a whole, both have released incredibly iconic videos. No denying it; what Madonna did with her image, sexuality, and reinvention, Michael did with his outfits, dance moves, and trademarks. If we're talking about their videos strictly from the '80s, Michael has the edge simply because the most iconic of Madonna's work was not yet released until the '90s ("Vogue", for example) and as discussed, Michael changed the medium for music videos themselves while Madonna did not. If we're talking about the '90s, Madonna has the edge because Michael toned down his "epic" music video events, with the exceptions of "Scream" and possibly "Earth Song" while she kept them coming and coming (i.e. "Justify My Love", "Bedtime Stories" and "Ray of Light").

[Guest nothingfails0603]

Holy paragraphs! Fabulous.

I think I can boil this down quite simply, to be perfectly honest. If we're talking about both Michael and Madonna's works as a whole, both have released incredibly iconic videos. No denying it; what Madonna did with her image, sexuality, and reinvention, Michael did with his outfits, dance moves, and trademarks. If we're talking about their videos strictly from the '80s, Michael has the edge simply because the most iconic of Madonna's work was not yet released until the '90s ("Vogue", for example) and as discussed, Michael changed the medium for music videos themselves while Madonna did not. If we're talking about the '90s, Madonna has the edge because Michael toned down his "epic" music video events, with the exceptions of "Scream" and possibly "Earth Song" while she kept them coming and coming (i.e. "Justify My Love", "Bedtime Stories" and "Ray of Light").

I thought it was the early 90's when MJ started getting out of hand with the "epic" videos.

[Guest Pud Whacker]

You did. And I thank you for giving her credit... Sorry if it sounded like I was scolding. I didn't mean to.

On the other hand, I didn't realize we were boxing up the decades in such (no pun intended) black and white terms. I thought we were discussing the complete videos of each artist, and trying to compare (fairly) similar works. I didn't think we were only comparing the videos of the '80s. (I brought up the '80s only as a reference to what I've heard some people say about MJ's cultural relevance -- how he's the ONLY star from the '80s and no one will ever touch that level, etc. etc. Which seems like hyperbole. Sure, he was great. And the musical legacy is impressive. I don't want to deny him that. But seriously, let's not re-write history entirely. Right -- all the other acts you mentioned certainly had their bright moments in the '80s, too. I would say, though, that if I could only pick one male and one female, it would be MJ and Madonna.)

I'd say Madonna's work with Fincher in the late 80s (which spilled into the 90s with "Vogue" -- but was really the tail end of the 80s when you think about it) was pretty iconic, too. And Material Girl and Open Your Heart, as well. Like a Prayer had the controversy, but MG had the Marilyn image reference and OYH. I don't know -- even Borderline (featuring the street urchin look that spawned so many wannabes, and foreshadowing Madonna's lasting relationship with photography/photographers/imagery) and LAV (the bridal dress image and its inseparable link to the infamous MTV performance that everyone always talks about)... Those all can't be discounted so easily. I don't know that I'd hand it to "Like a Prayer" so easily, I guess is what I'm saying. I love the song, and if we were talking about the song alone, I might agree. But I'd probably pick "Vogue" (which was #2 on MTV's Top 100 Video Countdown in 1999 or 2000 -- which was only behind MJ's "Thriller" in the #1 spot, of course) -- but if you're going to limit us to the '80s, well, then, I'd pick "Express Yourself" -- which is undoubtedly cinematic, but without having to elongate the structure of the song excessively.

"Oh Father" and "Cherish" are magical, too. Without "Cherish," Herb Ritts might never have made a music video.

Eh, Madonna's videos were events, too. Even for a video like "Bedtime Story" (which, I'll grant, was not the most commercial choice for a single, but obviously delivered a piece of artwork for the video) got a huge pajama party for the premiere... Justify My Love got banned and then got lots of news programming time, plus an airing on network television late at night. Madonna knows from "video events" just like Michael...

And again, I'd say "Vogue" has had a similar lasting impact to "Thriller." People know how to vogue, too. (Or they THINK they do -- LOL!) And it's only because she popularized it. ("Like a Prayer" didn't have a choreographed dance routine -- so it's a bit odd to fault it for not spawning any dance crazes or to criticize the fact that no one remembers any dance moves from it. She danced in religious ecstasy -- which is by definition uncontrolled and not pre-programmed. It fits well with the theme. Again, she didn't feel the need to use every trick in the book for every video, because that's kind of overkill sometimes. "Gilding the lily." Whereas MJ really forced those large dance breaks into everything, to varying degrees of success. If Madonna had done "LAP" the MJ way, she would have used the dance remix version and had a large choreographed routine in the breakdown section in the middle -- but it would have disrupted the dramatic story being told and ultimately would have been a distraction. It wasn't necessary -- it still captured attention and raised ire and all sorts of chaos ensued... cancelled endorsements, etc. etc. And while it's a subjective preference, then, I still say Madonna let the video and the song serve each other in better balance than MJ, who often overrode both with bombast. I mean, seriously, why does "Black or White" *need* the Macauley Culkin intro? What does that have to do with his color-blind message in the song?)

And her outfits were obviously copied, as well. All the girls in tights, with the hair bows and the gloves and the rubber bracelets?

So... sorry. I still don't concede that she was subordinate in the 80s. I think that's an artificial distinction to make. So many of her videos stand the test of time! She used special effects and gimmickry so little that you don't go "oh that looks so dated!" -- she relied on charisma and beauty (that NEVER fades with time when it's captured on film); compelling narrative ideas (pregnant teenager worries about telling her dad!); provocative, timeless themes (religion! sex!); and stylish costumes and choreography. She didn't use all in equal proportions for every project, but all those things don't date so much (except for maybe the costumes -- but even those have either kitschy value -- in the same way MJ's garb does, because who would wear any of that today?!).

dont forget in los angeles bedtime story premiered at a movie theater before it hit MTV. it was shown during hte preview sections.

[Guest Pud Whacker]

Holy paragraphs! Fabulous.

I think I can boil this down quite simply, to be perfectly honest. If we're talking about both Michael and Madonna's works as a whole, both have released incredibly iconic videos. No denying it; what Madonna did with her image, sexuality, and reinvention, Michael did with his outfits, dance moves, and trademarks. If we're talking about their videos strictly from the '80s, Michael has the edge simply because the most iconic of Madonna's work was not yet released until the '90s ("Vogue", for example) and as discussed, Michael changed the medium for music videos themselves while Madonna did not. If we're talking about the '90s, Madonna has the edge because Michael toned down his "epic" music video events, with the exceptions of "Scream" and possibly "Earth Song" while she kept them coming and coming (i.e. "Justify My Love", "Bedtime Stories" and "Ray of Light").

[peter]

Holy paragraphs! Fabulous.

Sorry -- I guess I could use some of Madonna's editing sense. Keep things concise! lol! What can I say? I'm just too wordy. (And it's nice to be able to talk about Madonna in the context of all of these MJ stories.)

dont forget in los angeles bedtime story premiered at a movie theater before it hit MTV. it was shown during hte preview sections.

I didn't know this, Pud! Thanks for telling me.

[IsaacHarris]

Found on Another Forum.

[Guest Ashap]

http://twitter.com/AntBoogieWorld - one of M's dancers

Is it just me or do his comments seem a little inappropriate towards his current boss. Especially the one about her not being mj's equal when the fan tried to wake his ass up that hes touring with MADONNA not britney spears... he didnt have to tweet anything about the tour when it comes to mj's death but he felt it was necessary...

[MaddysMuff]

http://twitter.com/AntBoogieWorld - one of M's dancers

Is it just me or do his comments seem a little inappropriate towards his current boss. Especially the one about her not being mj's equal when the fan tried to wake his ass up that hes touring with MADONNA not britney spears... he didnt have to tweet anything about the tour when it comes to mj's death but he felt it was necessary...

Well, having looked at his page for about a minute, this dude doesn't come across as the sharpest tool in the shed.

[jonski43]

Madonna has managed to maintain the production of striking videos. I must admit, after Black or White, you just don't see his videos anymore. If you look at the news, it's the 80s stuff that is shown. Certainly in the UK, his 90s videowork hasn't faired well and most people couldn't tell you about any of them - they just becamse expensive and bloated. I remember seeing "Remember the Time", a song I love, but the video is some over the top Egyptian theme but not actually that exciting.

As for Prince, anyone that saw him at his 21 night sellout concert at the O2 will know he's up there with MJ and Madonna in terms of musicianship and back catalogue but his legacy will be challenging the record companies in the 90s and his early adoption of new distributions for his music. His sales may have dropped but managing the distribution directly meant he was keeping all the profit and not having to give anything to record companies.

[loomer]

http://twitter.com/AntBoogieWorld - one of M's dancers

Is it just me or do his comments seem a little inappropriate towards his current boss. Especially the one about her not being mj's equal when the fan tried to wake his ass up that hes touring with MADONNA not britney spears... he didnt have to tweet anything about the tour when it comes to mj's death but he felt it was necessary...

What a twat

[promise to try]

I do think of the three, Prince's catalog is probably the most ultimately frustrating, because while some of his best work (Purple Rain, SOTT, 1999, Dirty Mind) is up there with the best Michael or Madonna ever put out, he's also put out loads of crap in his career. Madonna nor Michael have ever unleashed anything as bad as Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic on the world. I think MJ had a problem with being too meticulous in the studio and crafting a song longer than most artists can do an album AND tour -- which explains why he had so little output in such a long career, but Prince sometimes would just put too much out for his own good as well. When Prince could touch gold, he was able to put out a number of great albums at once (just look at 1984 when he gave us Purple Rain, The Time's Ice Cream Castles, Apollonia 6 and Sheila E's The Glamorous Life all within a three month period, all of which he wrote every track and played on) but he wasn't quite as good in the 90's. I will always be a bigger Prince fan than MJ because I feel like Prince has done a better job living up to his original promise and like Madonna, there's a Prince song for every possible mood, but I can understand why a lot of people prefer MJ, he was more accessible and no matter how "weird" his image got, it never translated onto album (even though I thought Prince recorded some of his best music when he was "weird and pretentious").

I agree

[davejr.]

Isn't it about time that Grammy's Give Madonna the LEGEND AWARD, same MJ had..I think She deserve to be there...don't you?

[Elysium]

Isn't it about time that Grammy's Give Madonna the LEGEND AWARD, same MJ had..I think She deserve to be there...don't you?

I'd like to see her bring out an exceptional album first. Something where she is not influenced by her roots, her fans, her critics or what the current musical climate is like. Something free and uniquely Madonna.

[promise to try]

Isn't it about time that Grammy's Give Madonna the LEGEND AWARD, same MJ had..I think She deserve to be there...don't you?

apart of MJ who has the award? Barbra? Prince? paul Mvcrtaney? S.Wonder? I only remember jackson, but I´m not a big grammy follower