Kurt420 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Who determines what is good and bad quality? Many old school rock enthusiasts (think the types who were against M being inducted to RRHOF) would shun most of the dance/pop music most of us here listen to because it's not "real music" just a bunch of synthesizers and computers. I'm pretty sure most of us here wouldn't agree with that. Stats don't necessarily reflect quality but obviously somebody, somewhere in the US found enough "quality" in 4M to snatch up 2 million copies of it, something like 30 or 40 million (??) youtube hits and people must have been requesting the song for it to get the airplay it did so.......many of you didn't find quality in it or HC but somebody else did.....in fact with 4M it was moreso than any of her songs in nearly a decade and the album had decent word of mouth for it to stick around the charts as long as it did on the strength of 1 hit single. And of course it's one of the biggest sellers of last year worldwide. Just because some of her gays' peacock feathers were ruffled over this doesn't mean the project was a mistake or should've happened any differently. It is what it is and the HC project was a success critically and commercially. So why change anything about it? NATURALLY most fans are orgasming at the thought of PSB having been on HC...... and wouldn't ya know it just so happens to be more less known (gotta keep it hip), electronic oriented, euro producers. WHAT A SHOCKER! Hmmm.....that would've made it album number 5 for the euro/electronic-ish type of sound. And SHE is the one who has been "out of touch" recently?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nothingfails0603 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I would've liked 4M's success better if the momentum carried over into GI2M (which is much more of a Madonna track IMO). 4M shouldn't be the "Believe"/"What's Love Got To Do With It" late-period blockbuster career hit, IMO it's too Justin/Timbaland and not "Madonna" enough. People liked the song, but they liked the song more than they liked Madonna, or else they would've bought the album (the same people who bough AL bought HC give or take) and other singles from the album would've been successful on iTunes. I just see it as Justin fans downloading the song for Justin and nothing else, and not it being a mass comeback type of song that really launched Madonna's career back to the forefront like those aforementioned Cher and Tina tracks. Look, we can debate this and go back and forth for hours. I believe 4M was a quick and easy hit to get Madonna one more US hit that she wasn't going to get on her own, but in the long run, it didn't attract a new generation of fans the way ROL did, but just attracted some Justin fans to download Madonna for one song, and nothing more. You can feel the other way, I just think that it's a shame the success of that song didn't transcend into bigger sales and more success for subsequent singles instead of being this one-off success story when it's the least Madonna sounding song of her career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightshade Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 (the same people who bough AL bought HC give or take) I am not sure that makes them equivalent failures. As many have pointed out in the chart forum, Hard Candy was among the Top 10 (or Top 11 if you go by official IFPI numbers) selling albums worldwide. American Life didn't even make the Top 20 in 2003 and both were spring time releases. I would still argue that HC got more media attention, airplay, and will have better catalog sales than AL. I'm not trying to belabor the point, I am just pointing out that your perspective still seems to be colored by the fact that you just don't like the style of the album. Look, we can debate this and go back and forth for hours. I believe 4M was a quick and easy hit to get Madonna one more US hit that she wasn't going to get on her own, but in the long run, it didn't attract a new generation of fans the way ROL did, but just attracted some Justin fans to download Madonna for one song, and nothing more. I actually agree that Hard Candy is absolutely NO Ray of Light. However, I don't think the Pet Shop Boys would've made it that kind of watershed album anyway, nor do I think they would've brought a new generation of fans. The only thing they might have done is made the Confessions on a Dance Floor gang happy, killed her chances at U.S. radio, and insured more dance club #1's. You can feel the other way, I just think that it's a shame the success of that song didn't transcend into bigger sales and more success for subsequent singles instead of being this one-off success story when it's the least Madonna sounding song of her career. Well, we are certainly of like minds on the wishing for bigger album sales from such a huge digital hit. But I'd argue "American Life" is still the most un-Madonna sounding track ever (for me anyway). Acoustic guitars? Digital snears? A rap about soy lattés? Who saw that one coming? Anyway, we disagree. It's coo... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurt420 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I would've liked 4M's success better if the momentum carried over into GI2M (which is much more of a Madonna track IMO). 4M shouldn't be the "Believe"/"What's Love Got To Do With It" late-period blockbuster career hit, IMO it's too Justin/Timbaland and not "Madonna" enough. People liked the song, but they liked the song more than they liked Madonna, or else they would've bought the album (the same people who bough AL bought HC give or take) and other singles from the album would've been successful on iTunes. I just see it as Justin fans downloading the song for Justin and nothing else, and not it being a mass comeback type of song that really launched Madonna's career back to the forefront like those aforementioned Cher and Tina tracks. Look, we can debate this and go back and forth for hours. I believe 4M was a quick and easy hit to get Madonna one more US hit that she wasn't going to get on her own, but in the long run, it didn't attract a new generation of fans the way ROL did, but just attracted some Justin fans to download Madonna for one song, and nothing more. You can feel the other way, I just think that it's a shame the success of that song didn't transcend into bigger sales and more success for subsequent singles instead of being this one-off success story when it's the least Madonna sounding song of her career. People did buy the album the though. It was the biggest seller by and American artist worldwide last year and check out youtube and all the kids doing dances and things to 4M.....even Miley did her little vid. Justin on it alone probably exposed her to a new generation who maybe decided to check her out. There are even fans on this board who have come on board because of HC so I'd say it was rather successful overall. I think the "dark cloud" about it on this board can distort the big picture. No....it didn't have the MASS critical acclaim of ROL but only LAP ever has. It didn't sell 15 million like ROL but she only has done that otherwise in the 80's during her commercial peak. Under the 2008 definintions of success for an album, HC WAS a success. You can't get much better than the best selling album by an American artist worldwide for the year. It's just old seeing it get labeled a failure simply on the fact a lot of her diehards didn't like it. So what really though? A true diehard probably bought it anyways and a true diehard knows that she'll probably blow them away with the next album so it's not like she's losing DROVES of fans. She's an artist you and I won't always like what she's offering us. And we are talking about Madonna so I doubt 4M will be her last big hit. And the success of 4M was absolutely an equal thing. JT doesn't = success. Of his songs where he's a "featured" artist, only 2 have done better than 4M. Even his song with Beyonce wasn't a big hit and obviously they are 2 of the most popular acts out there at the moment. 4M was absolutely one of the bigger commercial successes of all artists involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DIRTY PIG Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 im glad this didnt happen. i hate the pet shop boys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etips Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I don't see what's so terrible about the general public liking a song, simply because they do...as opposed to them liking it because it's Madonna. It's ok to just like something that you hear on the radio and buy it, without suddenly jumping on the artists overall bandwagon. Last spring when I was at work, someone turned on the radio, and 4M was playing. A co-worker of mine started casually swaying to it like no big deal. I imagine that she wasn't a Madonna fan, but probably was the type who would have went ahead and bought the single if she saw it on display. Considering how polarizing public opinion of Madonna can sometimes be, I actually find it refreshing when she does something that casually appeals to the general public who aren't necessarily fans of her. To stay relevant, you sometimes have to go outside of what your established listening audience would want or expect. Especially when you're someone like Madonna, whose music isn't always mainstream-appealing. Ignoring that albums, in general, don't sell like they used to...HC and the follow-up singles didn't do as well as they could have because (again) Madonna and WB didn't continue to ardently promote after the run of 4M. GI2M was a poor choice for a second single, but in retrospect any other song probably would have suffered in its place, with WB's aloof commitment and Madonna's pouring all of her energy into the planning a tour instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyHigh76 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I don't believe that Warners made any decisions on who Madonna should work with.She's always had total creative control,especially after her first few albums.If the Pet Shop Boys were considered then rejected,it was Madonna's decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyHigh76 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I doubt it would have been even "Hard Candy" or an R&B direction if they were involved. And I don't believe Warners said anything of the sort what direction she was heading when they contacted them. Whatever the case, no one can really say PSB's involvement would have made the project BETTER. At this point, we will never know that. I personally like HARD CANDY. It may not be my favorite album by her, but it only proves she's willing to take chances and experiment with either unknowns and popular producers. Exactly! I agree with everything you said.I enjoy 'Hard Candy' alot and I'm glad that Madonna chose a new direction and worked with Timbaland and Pharrell.I like the Pet Shop Boys but I think that if they had produced the album,it would have sounded like 'Confessions On A Dancefloor Part 2'.....another Europop dance album.As we all know,Madonna hates to repeat herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyHigh76 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I think the PSB are ok, but I am happy with Hard Candy the way it is. I am sure if the PSB had done it, it would've sold even less in the U.S. than it already has. I can't see any lead single produced by them getting the huge airplay and hype that "4 Minutes" received. I do like their "Sorry" remix though. Very clever. Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyHigh76 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 why does success matter? Okay, 4M was a huge hit, do you think it's going to be remembered as little more than a footnote in her career in 10 years, kinda like Die Another Day or something. Just because it was a huge hit doesn't make it better or worse, but it did feel like her pandering to radio that won't give her REAL music a chance. IMO, it's just like David Bowie, his most commercially successful hitmaking period was the early 1980's, but how many fans do you know who consider that the period he made his best music? I see the same thing with 4 Minutes for Madge. Sucesss may not matter to YOU and that's fine,but it obviously matters to Madonna (or any other pop artist).Remember,her last album had all these great singles ("Jump","Get Together","Sorry") that went nowhere in the States."4 Minutes" got more airplay and attention than those three songs combined.Maybe she felt like she wanted a hit single for a change,and she got one.Maybe she wanted to end the Warner years with one final big-selling hit? Maybe she got sick of releasing great singles that get ignored by the mainstream? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FatFagget Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Just because some of her gays' peacock feathers were ruffled over this doesn't mean the project was a mistake or should've happened any differently. It is what it is and the HC project was a success critically and commercially. So why change anything about it? R U disrespectin' Alison Goldfrapp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosmic_system Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I don't see what's so terrible about the general public liking a song, simply because they do...as opposed to them liking it because it's Madonna. It's ok to just like something that you hear on the radio and buy it, without suddenly jumping on the artists overall bandwagon. Last spring when I was at work, someone turned on the radio, and 4M was playing. A co-worker of mine started casually swaying to it like no big deal. I imagine that she wasn't a Madonna fan, but probably was the type who would have went ahead and bought the single if she saw it on display. Considering how polarizing public opinion of Madonna can sometimes be, I actually find it refreshing when she does something that casually appeals to the general public who aren't necessarily fans of her. To stay relevant, you sometimes have to go outside of what your established listening audience would want or expect. Especially when you're someone like Madonna, whose music isn't always mainstream-appealing. Ignoring that albums, in general, don't sell like they used to...HC and the follow-up singles didn't do as well as they could have because (again) Madonna and WB didn't continue to ardently promote after the run of 4M. GI2M was a poor choice for a second single, but in retrospect any other song probably would have suffered in its place, with WB's aloof commitment and Madonna's pouring all of her energy into the planning a tour instead. :clap: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Bitch Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Thank heavens this didn't happen - the PSBs haven't done anything of worth since the mid 90s and besides, the acts they produce tend to end up dying of breast cancer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genevieve Vavance Posted March 9, 2009 Author Share Posted March 9, 2009 ^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowball83 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Well thank god for that, because Hard Candy is perfect the way it is - the right producers were picked for this era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ai Papi Si. Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Stats don't necessarily reflect quality but obviously somebody, somewhere in the US found enough "quality" in 4M to snatch up 2 million copies of it, something like 30 or 40 million (??) youtube hits and people must have been requesting the song for it to get the airplay it did so.......many of you didn't find quality in it or HC but somebody else did.....in fact with 4M it was moreso than any of her songs in nearly a decade and the album had decent word of mouth for it to stick around the charts as long as it did on the strength of 1 hit single. And of course it's one of the biggest sellers of last year worldwide. Again, I have to reiterate... SO WHAT? Just because some of her gays' peacock feathers were ruffled over this doesn't mean the project was a mistake or should've happened any differently. It is what it is and the HC project was a success critically and commercially. So why change anything about it? Who here has said anything about it being a mistake? The worst that was said about it was that is was a shitty album, or that it was transitional (I said that - and transitional doesn't equal bad. It just means it was transitional). And as expected the same troupe of people dampen their undies for no reason. I don't get it. Are you just really angry that it wasn't recieved as well as the last album? And what's so bad about thinking a song or two with Pet Shop Boys would have been interesting? I'm sure you would have loved it yourself. After all, no one here started championing Madonna's change in sound until she made Hard Candy and half of her fanbase didn't like it. All of a sudden, Confessions and the 3 albums before it were a "tired" sound, and anyone who liked them more than Hard Candy was just a poof who was stuck in the past. And apparently they all sounded the same too, because anything within the european producer/electro genre sounds totally the same. To me it just sounds like you guys are finding any old excuse to defend this album, even dismissing the albums she made before it if thats what it means. And I gotta say, for all this R&B talk, it wasn't that much of a genre leap. It was a pop album, a lot like Bedtime Stories and Confessions (which by the same token was hailed as a dance album, but wasn't really). And people still hate it. So that whole "gay men hate R&B, thats why you hate it" theory is a bit meaningless now isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurt420 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Again, I have to reiterate... SO WHAT? Who here has said anything about it being a mistake? The worst that was said about it was that is was a shitty album, or that it was transitional (I said that - and transitional doesn't equal bad. It just means it was transitional). And as expected the same troupe of people dampen their undies for no reason because for some reason this album being dismissed by half of her fanbase seems to REALLY bother them. I don't get it. And what's so bad about thinking a song or two with Pet Shop Boys would have been interesting? I'm sure you would have loved it yourself. After all, no one here started championing Madonna's change in sound until she made Hard Candy and half of her fanbase didn't like it. All of a sudden, Confessions and the 3 albums before it were a "tired" sound, and anyone who liked them more than Hard Candy was just a poof who was stuck in the past. And apparently they all sounded the same too, because anything within the european producer/electro genre sounds totally the same. To me it just sounds like you guys are finding any old excuse to defend this album, even dismissing the albums she made before it if thats what it means. And I gotta say, for all this R&B talk, it wasn't that much of a genre leap. It was a pop album, a lot like Bedtime Stories and Confessions (which by the same token was hailed as a dance album, but wasn't really). And people still hate it. So that whole "gay men hate R&B, thats why you hate it" theory is a bit meaningless now isn't it? And it's the same people coming in to find any reason to dismiss the success (NOTICE I said dismiss the SUCCESS of the album...not the QUALITY) the album did have simply because they don't like it. I DON'T CARE IF YOU THINK IT'S THE WORST ALBUM IN RECORDED MUSIC HISTORY. YOU WERE THE MINORITY THE ALBUM WAS A WORLDWIDE HIT. This isn't like AL which divided fans then as well too, the thing is though for that time AL WAS a flop. It didn't finish as a big seller WW, it got VERY mixed reviews AT BEST and failed to produce a hit single. Again, success doesn't equal quality but when EVERYTHING (fan love, sales, reviews etc.) surrounding a project is a flop....even amongst the diehards, then it's probably NOT the artists best work. HC had NONE of those liabilites, the opposite in fact. The big "SO WHAT??" is this.....YOU (and many other of her diehards) didn't like the album. FINE. Myself and many others saw enough "quality" in 4M and HC to make them bona fide successes. So....the moral is dear, not EVERYBODY thinks it's garbage. It wasn't some HUGE mistake as many try to imply, it did NOTHING to damage her career and in fact take a look around......when is the last time we had this many "younger" fans on the board?? NOT directly after AL I can tell you that. So tell me, other than the fact that YOU personally do not like the music very much, how was this project a failure? And yes of course I realize not all electronic music sounds the same. All of her electronic influenced albums sound different, I do have ears! But it was refreshing to see her go a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT route this time. AWAY from the electronica after 10 years of using it heavily. Because (as evidenced by the poor US airplay of basically ALL her singles this decade until 4M) NOT EVERYBODY likes "different" and what is wrong with her catering to those who like a more current, typical Top 40 sound for ONE song or ONE album?? It's not like she's going Mariah and is going to have an R&B feel to all her albums and collab with ONLY the "hottest" of the moment from here on out. It was a one time thing.....THAT my friend is the big "SO WHAT" that all of you need to get the eff over already! Now run along I'm sure some new HQ vids of Brits DRAG SHOW (essentially that's what it is) have surfaced for you all to cream over! GODDESS!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GimmeSomeMo Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 The way you go on about it, someone would think that HC is the blockbuster of the ages. And if someone enjoys the album for THEMSELVES is the most important thing to THEMSELVES. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurt420 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 OH and 12:51 I don't think gays hate it because it's R&B. If anything I think many don't like Madonna working with the biggest producers of the moment AND many perceive it as THEM giving HER a hit....when many feel it should be the other way around....I think that irritates some fans. And like yourself, you simply DON'T LIKE the music....nothing more nothing less. I will say though, the whole project had a bit of a "dark cloud" from the moment the P and T&T words were mentioned as being involved with it. Before anybody ever heard a note. Just an observation....don't know if any of that carried over and kind of clouded judgement of the music for some.....maybe, it's not that far fetched. But I just found it funny that many in this thread were absolutely X-THATIC over the thought of PSB being on HC......I'm just not surprised that's all. It just so happens their music is pretty Euro in sound, dance/electronic oriented and they aren't very popular in the states. GO FIGURE! Sometimes stereotypes really are fitting. But anyways..... And sure I would've been open to it, but based on what I've heard from them over the last few years, at best I think HC would've been a mediocre COADF but I certainly would've been open to it. I personally LOVE electronic music so she could've done it forever for all I care. It was just cool seeing her branch out into other areas of pop for the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurt420 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 The way you go on about it, someone would think that HC is the blockbuster of the ages. And if someone enjoys the album for THEMSELVES is the most important thing to THEMSELVES. And the way you and those on your side of the fence go on about it you would think it was a disaster of epic proportions. Everything in regard to facts about the success of the album that I have posted in this thread are true, I didn't make them up. So go on about how awful YOU FEEL but don't label it something it's not because you don't like it, that's all I'm saying. I think defenders of the album are tired of being criticized because WE LIKE THE ALBUM. Call me the Madonna police all you want....but who the fuck are you guys?? THE MUSIC POLICE?? Only what YOU like is good and what everybody else likes is shit because you think so? Don't know if that's how you guys mean to come across but that's the way you do come across. And the irony of it all is that all of you like what MOST consider to be the bottom of the barrel of music.....Dannii, Britney.....lol. You do know most people would ROTFL at the notion that those are REAL musical "artists". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonski43 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I prefer Hard Candy to Ray of Light. I think ROL just drowns in Orbit's production and the last half of the album is just dull. It would have been interesting to see what the PSBs could have done with one track but I do think they are a one trick pony and would have just produced a COADF Lite version. All her albums recently have had very dominant production and I don't think the songs are any better for it. Timbaland, Orbit, Mirwais have all had strong sounds but look at her big, classic hits - they were just good pop songs not dominated by a sound. I wish she would just go back to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ai Papi Si. Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 And the irony of it all is that all of you like what MOST consider to be the bottom of the barrel of music.....Dannii, Britney.....lol. You do know most people would ROTFL at the notion that those are REAL musical "artists". This is when your argument becomes especially irritating. People could make just as much fun of us for liking Madonna, just to let you know. I like Britney myself. For totally different reasons from Madonna. I also like NIN. For totally different reasons from Madonna. What does ANY of that have to do with this argument? You could insert anyone's name in place of Britney and say "ugh, you like them, how can you say anything about this album?" No one's trying to say that their taste in music is better than yours. I think people are more curious about why there's so much animosity when the subject of this album is brought up - especially from you guys's end! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ai Papi Si. Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 And I will add that I've said on here a few times that I didn't consider Hard Candy a flop at all. It started out pretty well. Once Give It 2 Me dropped it nosedived as expected, but I think that's more an issue of the wrong song and the abandoning of the project more than people disliking it. I've actually noticed that some people who didn't care for Madonna in the last 10 years enjoyed this album, which is cool. I don't think she made a barrage of new fans with this album though, which is what I'm gleaning from some people here. Young fans pop up around EVERY album release. I've been posting on Marge forums since 2002, it's been the same each time, even with American Life. Hell, I was only 16 when that album was released and I loved it. *fannyfarts away* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip The Switch Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I prefer Hard Candy to Ray of Light. I think ROL just drowns in Orbit's production and the last half of the album is just dull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nothingfails0603 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I seriously fail to see where HC was this huge blockbuster. 700k in the US still isn't that impressive even in this day and age, especially considering it failed to sell half what her previous album did with zero airplay. IMO, that makes it just a step above American Life in terms of success. There is no reason why Give It 2 Me wasn't a Don't Tell Me in regards of success next to 4 Minutes' Music. 4M should've been like Moo's We Belong Together and become a catalyst to a career renaissance (all of those flop singles off K=FC2 got more airplay than any Madonna single in the past 5 years barring 4 Minutes) and not just some one-off comeback hit like Believe was to Cher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ursaminorjim Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 For my money, Hard Candy is hands down her best album this century (shame the two biggest duds were the lead singles). And the Pet Shop Boys are absolutely brilliant. That said, I'm kinda glad this didn't happen. Their remix of "Sorry" was just painfully competent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nothingfails0603 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 IMO people who say PSB stopped making good music in the early 90's have obviously not heard them since the early 90's. Fundamental was almost universally regarded as their strongest work since Very, and Yes is pouring in with great advanced reviews. They may not be commercially relevant in the states anymore, but they're on a roll after a few mediocre late 90's albums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonski43 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I never said I had good taste Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ugly Hecty Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 For my money, Hard Candy is hands down her best album this century (shame the two biggest duds were the lead singles). Right, and R.E.M.'s Around The Sun is the greatest piece of work they've ever done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADUSTIO Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I am glad hard candy is the way it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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