Hard Candy SoundScan/Billboard 200 Discussion

[Supernatural]

I donno about a radio boycott for political reasons, but I have to say the climate this country has been in under the Bush admin. probably doesn't mesh well with Madonna in general. I've actually felt that way since Bush took office- that everything was going to be anti-art and pro stupidity. Things just got worse for anyone with an opinion after 9/11. Looking back over the past 7+ years it would probably be out of place for someone like Madonna to florish here, not nessisarily because of a boycott but just the general state of the country.

[HolidayGuy]

4M peaked at around 54 million weekly audience in the USA, which is Madonna's highest since "Die Another Day." So, in Madonna terms, definitely decent. Madonna hasn't come anywhere near a peak of 120 million in the USA (since BDS started monitoring airplay in 1991)- "Music" holds her weekly peak, and that was 83 million.

And, it doesn't matter that Cher hasn't enjoyed the success Madonna has- point is, she was 53 or so when "Believe" was a worldwide phenomenon- and then the follow-ups didn't do well in airplay.

[Guest jamesshot]

As my radio DJ friend told me at the time, there WAS a boycott( though not a 100% one) during 2003. Not anymore. It's basically pure ageism now.

[HolidayGuy]

^It didn't help that in comparison to most of her hits, "American Life" and "Hollywood" were kinda lackluster. Sure, quality and the charts don't always match up, but Madge is held to a higher standard than some others.

[Guest presley]

4 Minutes charted 3rd on Billboard not because of the AI but cause of the huge sales in the first weeks. Save for the first week it sold more than all the other songs at the top, the 2nd and 3rd weekend was besT selling digital song. Still its AI peaked at 40-50 million whereas the other songs at the top, although selling way lower, had between 150-200 million AI

NOW WHEN

4 MINUTES SELLS 200 k one weak with 40 million AI

and anther song sells 100-130 k in the same week and has 160 millioN AI

THEN 4 mINUTES IS DISADVANTAGED BY THE RADIO CLOSE to 8 times

now 8 times..i call this boycott and making sure the song doesn't reach nr 1

8 TIMES

[Guest jamesshot]

Not a boycott but a really really stupid move by radio. The boycott did happen in 2003. People of all ages, especially teens, love 4M. However, where the song stalled out was the urban markets. Of course, M doesn't exactly fit the urban market to begin with. She maxed out in Top 40 radio stations. Not evidence of a boycott.

You could argue crossover artists( ie black) have a huge advantage to begin with when it comes to radio but that is not a discussion for here.

[Etips]

I think there may have been more of a Madonna ‘snubbing’ than an outright “boycott.” A situation where Clear Channel stations semi-deliberately overlooked Madonna’s latest music, but didn’t necessarily seek to have her outright blacklisted or banned from the air.

With Madonna it’s so convoluted to try and sort out because you have so many other semantics at play. Using American Life (although I think it started sooner than that) as the starting point of her struggle at radio, one must to keep in mind that it was/is her least commercial album of her career. You then have to question how well any of its singles would have fared at radio, regardless to whether there was a “boycott” or not. Even if there was a boycott at some point, Madonna producing music that seemed to deliberately go against the grain more than likely blurred the lines between “boycott,” disinterest and apathy, as far as radio programmers are concerned.

Now in 2008, after years of being a sonic gypsy, and less hit and more miss, Madonna releasing a commercially assessable album doesn’t automatically reopen the airplay door for her, because it’s been too long now since she was a sure shot at radio. Radio has grown both apathetic to, and fearful/distrusting of, her…on top of other things like age issues, etc. That’s why she seriously fucked up with choosing GI2M as the second single. Even with the success of 4M, she hasn’t regained up enough commercial credit to get away with releasing a song like that and having it skate by on the strength of the single before it.

[Supernatural]

Yet another thing to keep in mind is that stations that play Madonna have tons of hits to pick from and obviously aren't going to play her every half hour, so the hits on their playlist eat into her newer material airtime. I'd be curious to see what Madonna's airplay is for all her singles combined for a week, vs. the airplay for a current big hit.

[thebigham]

Aren't you all tired of discussing this over and over again??? You all keep going in circles. This thread is 40 pages of the same old discussion. ZZZZZzzzzzZZZZZZZZzzzzz

[thebigham]

8/30 charts:

116 MADONNA HARD CANDY 5,131 5,758 -11% 623,048 (Gold)

[HolidayGuy]

Not bad, down just 6 spots (in its 16th week). Now 51,000 and change away from reaching AL's tally.

[Dindi]

I wonder how much the tour will affect sales. At the very least, maybe it can stabilize weekly sales to around 5000. Maybe not.

[HolidayGuy]

On the prior page or so, I posted the periods when the tour hitting the USA would affect sales. I don't think the non-USA tour will do much- whatever level HC is at when the tour hits the USA- then maybe sales could stabilize some. I would think sales are going to drop below 5K next week.

[Ciccone's Cheeks]

how far ahead is HC compared to the same week for AL?

[HolidayGuy]

Through the first 14 weeks, HC was 63,400+ ahead of AL after the same amount of time. AL dropped off the chart in its 15th week, but its weekly sales probably still were similar to HC's.

[albertogerard]

Please correct me if I'm wrong (which I hope is the case) but, it seems in the past Madonna's albums did NOT benefit from her concert tours. In the cases of "American Life", "Music" and "Erotica", Madonna didn't go on tour till the year after they were released. Maybe that's why we saw no sales increase. As an example, I'll use Lauryn Hill, she went on tour shortly before or right when her album was released and she reaped the benefits of it. Madonna previewed 4 songs from "I'm Breathless" on her Blond Ambition tour before the album was released (I remember WAITING for IM to come out because I loved her song 'Hanky Panky'). Considering that Madonna was the HOTTEST name in music in 1990, 2 million for an album she plugged is sad, especially when you consider that Janet Jackson sold 5 million copies of "RHYTHM NATION 1814" at the time she was touring. Also, let's not forget the COUNTLESS acts who sell records from touring alone, no support from radio or MTV.

For decades, the way artists sold records was through touring. Madonna seems to not benefit from touring.

Am I wrong? Missing something? A different perspective would be helpful.

[Etips]

Since The Girlie Show, Madonna’s tours have generally come too late. She’ll wait until the album has been out a year, has no more forthcoming singles, and has fallen off of the charts (or close to it) before she decides to up and hit the road. It seems like it hasn’t been since the 80s that Madonna toured while the album was still hot. With Hard Candy, it seemed like finally her touring wouldn’t be so tardy…but from the looks of it, both she and Warner Bros. actively stopped promoting the album after the first single, so even though this time could have been different, it inadvertently becomes the same situation all again. Maybe if after this tour starts, WB and Madonna started actively promoting the album again (doubtful), HC will see a sales increase…but if everything remains like it is now, with no other push besides her touring, then I doubt it.

[HolidayGuy]

How can Madonna promote the album outside the tour? She barely promoted if at all when not on tour. Touring is her promotion- and when the tour hits the USA, as noted, the album may see some stabilization in sales. But, sales may be below 4K by the time that happens (which, could keep it on the BB 200- sales will increase closer to the holidays, which means higher numbers at the bottom of the chart).

[Nightshade]

Please correct me if I'm wrong (which I hope is the case) but, it seems in the past Madonna's albums did NOT benefit from her concert tours. In the cases of "American Life", "Music" and "Erotica", Madonna didn't go on tour till the year after they were released. Maybe that's why we saw no sales increase.

Well, technically, MUSIC did see very small increases. It was selling about 10,000 copies before the DWT touched down Stateside, however it did see an increase of 1,000+ copies when the tour hit NYC (and even got a bullet on the Top 200). That tour helped it stabilize and it hovered around 11,000-12,000 copies a week until the tour ended, and it got up to about 18,000 when the HBO special aired.

Madonna previewed 4 songs from "I'm Breathless" on her Blond Ambition tour before the album was released (I remember WAITING for IM to come out because I loved her song 'Hanky Panky'). Considering that Madonna was the HOTTEST name in music in 1990, 2 million for an album she plugged is sad, especially when you consider that Janet Jackson sold 5 million copies of "RHYTHM NATION 1814" at the time she was touring.

I think that's a bad comparison. I'm Breathless was not a typical "pop Madonna" album. The old 20's style of the songs and its purpose to help promote Dick Tracy were destined to harm its sales in the long run. Janet's album was pure dance-pop and sold a lot more because it had like 6 singles from that album. I don't think the touring component was a major driver for either artist's album sales that year.

Also, let's not forget the COUNTLESS acts who sell records from touring alone, no support from radio or MTV.

For decades, the way artists sold records was through touring. Madonna seems to not benefit from touring.

Am I wrong? Missing something? A different perspective would be helpful.

Well, from the other point of view - look how many albums Madonna sells BEFORE she even tours. Hard Candy is at 3 million worldwide (shipped, of course) before she sets foot on a stage. As far as I am aware, that is more than any artist that is known more for touring that doing new albums - like the Rolling Stones or Bruce Springsteen.

My hypothesis is that her sales see smaller effects due to touring because of the usual timing of her tours (well after the album release) and the fact that she is a mass-marketed artist (unlike so many smaller acts that tour to get their name out) so people typically know when she has a new album coming out. There isn't much of a "discovery" to be made about her music once she tours. Just my thoughts...

[Guest nothingfails0603]

Well, from the other point of view - look how many albums Madonna sells BEFORE she even tours. Hard Candy is at 3 million worldwide (shipped, of course) before she sets foot on a stage. As far as I am aware, that is more than any artist that is known more for touring that doing new albums - like the Rolling Stones or Bruce Springsteen.

I think the reason fans are stunned HC hasn't done better is because HC may very well be her most blatantly commercial album (in the US that is) since Bedtime Stories. You mentioned the Stones and The Boss, but the big difference is that those two seem to record albums specially for the converted and musically keep it safe these days (but even then, HC will likely never catch up to Springsteen's latest in the states, which is at about 1 million give or take) while Madonna has never been the type to just stick to one sound and just record for the die-hards, so people see HC as a lost cause because it should easily be double where it is now had she and Warner had the good sense to give the album the promotion that an album so commercial demands.

[Guest]

It's really weird to think that Madonna is as relevant as Janet in USA right now.

Hard Candy and Discipline sold almost the same in America (only 200k difference).

Thank God that Madonna has an international fanbase!!!!

[Guest Danny86]

Some of the discussion is beyond tired here. Do you really have to accentuate in every post of yours that what a disappointment Hard Candy is because it's her most commercial since Bedtime Stories? A Timbaland produced album does NOT automatically mean huge sales, basically he yielded only 1 huge hit album and that's FutureSex/LoveSounds! Loose only sold a few hundred thousand more copies than COADF and that was 2 years ago and Nelly got 2 huge #1s, not to mention 50 Cent whose album crashed and burned even though its lead off single was a Justin/Timbaland collaboration. Madonna is 50 years old, it's her 12th album for God's sake, and most of the album is NOT what you hear on the charts, so can't you just let it go?

As for Madonna being as relevant as Janet in the US... How many top 10 hits did Janet get in this decade, how many million selling singles did Janet get this decade, and most importantly, is Janet touring America in every 2 years and is selling out a lot of venues at multiple dates?

[notsomuch]

It's really weird to think that Madonna is as relevant as Janet in USA right now.

Hard Candy and Discipline sold almost the same in America (only 200k difference).

Thank God that Madonna has an international fanbase!!!!

You don't really think its as simple as number of CDs sold (in a environment where the CD is dying) do you?

There is a big picture that you are missing.

[Guest traherne]

It's really weird to think that Madonna is as relevant as Janet in USA right now.

Hard Candy and Discipline sold almost the same in America (only 200k difference).

Thank God that Madonna has an international fanbase!!!!

In this case, thos 200k mean a 50% increase over Janet's sales. Nothing to scoff at.

And let's wait until both women have toured the US before announcing who's more relevant.

[HolidayGuy]

Album sales alone- especially in this day and ageof diminshing sales- cannot be the only factor to look at.

In any event, if you were comparing Janet's sales to Madonna's in the USA the last 10 years (albums released in close time frames): All For You outscanned Music by some 250,000, and Damita Jo topped American Life by some 325,000+. Ray of Light scanned 550,000+ more than The Velvet Rope, and Confessions on a Dance Floor scanned 1 million or so more than 20 Y.O. And now Hard Candy has outscanned Discipline. Just for FYI purposes.

[Laprol]

So I guess with 4 months left in the year, the best we can expect for the album is 700k? That would mean it would have to average 5,000 copies a week..

[HolidayGuy]

Including this week, there are 19 sales weeks left in 2008 (week ending 12/28). Sales likely will drop below 5K starting with this week, and then we'll see how the tour affects things. There's still no word on a supposed HBO broadcast, and that could boost it a little bit.

[Guest nothingfails0603]

Some of the discussion is beyond tired here. Do you really have to accentuate in every post of yours that what a disappointment Hard Candy is because it's her most commercial since Bedtime Stories? A Timbaland produced album does NOT automatically mean huge sales

Bjork does not count! Loose was a successful album IMO, as was Timbaland's own release last year. In this sales climate 1.5-2 million is a success. There is no reason why HC can't even sell half what COADF did stateside considering COADF is not an album you'd hear on US radio, HC is.

Seriously dude, buy yourself some tampons, no point in being so damn grouchy. You fucking loon who has this obsession with finding something in my posts to bitch about 24/7 even when there is nothing to bitch over. I bet if I called HC a great album and a success, you'd find something in my post to bitch about.

[boy skeffington]

Bjork does not count! Loose was a successful album IMO, as was Timbaland's own release last year. In this sales climate 1.5-2 million is a success. There is no reason why HC can't even sell half what COADF did stateside considering COADF is not an album you'd hear on US radio, HC is.

Seriously dude, buy yourself some tampons, no point in being so damn grouchy. You fucking loon who has this obsession with find something in my posts to bitch about 24/7 even when there is nothing to bitch over. I bet if I called HC a great album and a success, you'd find something in my post to bitch about.

You speak and you have no clue.

Stop it.

[Guest Danny86]

Bjork does not count! Loose was a successful album IMO, as was Timbaland's own release last year. In this sales climate 1.5-2 million is a success. There is no reason why HC can't even sell half what COADF did stateside considering COADF is not an album you'd hear on US radio, HC is.

Seriously dude, buy yourself some tampons, no point in being so damn grouchy. You fucking loon who has this obsession with finding something in my posts to bitch about 24/7 even when there is nothing to bitch over. I bet if I called HC a great album and a success, you'd find something in my post to bitch about.

There's no point in repeating the same stuff over and over again either, which you keep on doing in the chart forum. That makes you a "loon" as well in my opinion.

Timbaland's album sold the double of HC on the back of three million-seller singles (one of them was the first digital single to reach 3 million I think) that had a different artists singing the chorus on each of them, and of course Timbaland being one the most celebrated producer/pop musician of 2006/2007. I don't see how Madonna is supposed to reach those sales on the back of one hit single and zero promo appearances on tv.

And once again, the 75% of HC is not an album you'd hear on US radio. "Candy Shop", "4 Minutes" & "Devil Wouldn't Recognize You" do not equal all the 12 songs on the CD. The sales comparison to COADF is beyond pointless, you can't compare the holiday sales of 2005 to the spring/summer sales of 2008, it has been said way too many times on this forum, not to mention that the singles market got much bigger since then. And didn't Janet's album prove that even if you record US friendly music, that's far from getting a million seller? Discipline is more radio friendly than HC yet it sold 200k less. Those producers on Discipline did score big hits with others as well.