elijah
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Posts posted by elijah
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8 minutes ago, debord said:
Your history is not accurate but it's irrelevant and I already said why: Gaza is recognised as occupied in international law. That is all that matters here.
In what exactly? I d say all I said is deffinately facts.
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6 minutes ago, karbatal said:
Palestine shouldn’t even have to share the land of what nowadays is Israel. They created a new State based on where people lived centuries ago. Just what Putin did with Crimea. Israel had the same rights on that land as Russia has on Crimea: NONE.
Hmmm. Really there is no analogy between your examples. The Jewish state wasnt created "based on where people lived centuries ago". In 1947, when Israel was declared a state, there were already millions of Jews living in what is presentday Israel. It was created based on where Jews lived in 1947. Maybe you mean the fact that UK in their mandade over Palestine after WW1 declared they would establish a Jewish state? However as someone mentioned, Jews lived in Palestine anyways, but many Jews moveden masse from Europe due to pogroms and WW2. In the 40ties they were already millions Jews living in Palestine.
Cremea is no analogus for Israel. It was first populated by Cremean Tatars (original ppl that lived there), after that it was taken over by the Russian empire and many Russians and Ukrainians went to live there. Then Stalin moved millions of Tatars from Cremea and basically changed the ethnic composition: the majority were Russians. Cremea was part of the Russian USSR until 1954 when Chruschov (and the Communist party of USSR) made it part of Ukraine. After 1991 it remained within Ukraine (with Russian majority) and Russia recognized it as part of Ukraine. Not only that: in 1994 Ukraine gave up all its nuclear arms to Russia and Russia, USA, UK and France garanteed Ukraine's sovereignity and security and obliged to go to war if someone invaded Ukraine. Shocking: the one who had to protect Ukraine, invade it. How are the two situations similar really?
And when you say "Palestine shouldn’t even have to share the land of what nowadays is Israel", you understand there are 10 million Jews in Israel now, right? If Palestine shouldnt share land with them, what should those people do? Move back to Spain, from where they were chased out in 1492????
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49 minutes ago, debord said:
It's completely irrelevant what states recognised each other and when. Gaza is recognised by the international community as an occupied terrority, and that comes with particular rights of resistance. But actually yes I agree with you, one state, however that's constituted, is the only viable solution.
I d say mutually recognizing each other as a state is a HUGE difference for RU and UKR. At first, it means each of the states recognizes the sovereignity of the other state over its territory (UN Charter basic principle). Thats why 2022 invasion of RU was shocking, appauling, in breach of international law and surely NOT in any way similar to Israel/Palestine situation. Now with Israel/Palestine you had one, common territory, ruled by the UK till the 40ties. In their mandate, UK declared they would seek establishing a Jewish state in Palestine (back after 1st WW when the Ottoman empire was defeated and UK was "awarded" with a mandate over Palestine). The first clashes of Jews and Palestines are from the 30ties. Then in the 40ties UK left, Israel declared itself a state while Palestine refused to declare itself a state and didnt recognize Israel, claiming all of Palestine. Then in the following decades Israel fought basically non stop against most of the Arab world. I really see nothing in common with UKR to be honest...
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On 10/8/2023 at 7:33 PM, karbatal said:
I always have the feeling that your source of information is a bit pro Russia
Poland?????
Poland has started to see itself abit like Germany of the East (there are some economic grounds for this), but I would never suspect they would stoop so low as to invade and take over Western Ukr (which historically is connected to Poland and Lithuania and their medieval common state). Its just the RU fairytale they want to instill in the West that they are no different than Poland. They are.
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4 hours ago, karbatal said:
How can you say that? You are using the same rethoric as Putin in Ukraine.
How exacly? I dont see your logic. Please elaborate.
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53 minutes ago, debord said:
You should read about the proposed partition plans for Palestine back in the day and wonder why you would no doubt agree that Ukraine should not have to give up any of its territory, but you blame the Palestinians for not eagerly doing the same on very bad terms. It's also telling to just blame Palestine for being unreasonable when Israel has been continuing ethnic cleansing with absolutely no-one who is suddenly piping up now about violence condemning it.
The basis of the "peace agreement" was meant to be a two-state solution but Israel has made that impossible. It's clear that a single democratic state with equal rights for all is the only remotely viable path at this point.
I ve read extensively on the matter, thank you very much. I dont see any paralels between Ukraine and Palestine by the way. The HUGE difference: RU recognized UKR in their international borders back in 1991. Untill 2013 RU didnt have any pretensions against UKR territory. Now Palestine was never recognized by Israel, nor was Israel ever regognized by the Palestine... They were never two mutually recognized states living side by side UNLIKE Russia and Ukraine (basically existing by each side and in friendly relations from 1991 till 2013). So, really, I see no paralels in those situations. Sure, there are RU minorities within UKR, but I really wonder where would those prefer to live in presently IF a democratic referendum is held: I would assume UKR in the vast majority.
Now I am not urging Palestinians to give up their land. I never was. I was merely making an observation that the Palestinians had multiple times the chance to have their independant state (from the 40ties onward) and UNFORTUNATELY with each passing year their proposed territory shrinks. I am not justifying Israels actions in West Bank, thats for sure. What I am saying is that Israel and Palestine have not recognized each other as a state for decades... Israel is the obvious stronger side in this conflict and is using the time to enlarge the territories it was assigned in the 40ties. Anyways, Israel had to fight wars and was victorious in all of them and gained control of most of the Palestinian assigned territories. At this point neither seems ready to back down and thats why I see only a federal state as a viable solution.
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1 hour ago, ULIZOS said:
Free Palestine
Which Palestine at this point? Gaza is self governing I think and the West Bank… well I don’t know how Israel and Palestine would divide that… Good luck! And how and when will you accept Palestine as free? Not to shift the blame, but many times the Palestine had a chance to have its state, but they never accepted it because they want all of it. Well no matter how they came to the holy land, how do Palestinian expect 10 mill Jews to evacuate “their land” (at this point)? I think the viable solution would probably be a federation between those two with a jew as a president and a Palestinian as vice president, self governing parts with central government like Belgium. All else would not be accepted by the Palestinians I would assume.
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37 minutes ago, promise to try said:
this is really ineteresting.I think it was a huge mistake by gorbachov, it seems so clear to me,that I don´t get how come nobody wrote and signed something about that possible situation.I mean, one thing is to end the USSR and other to have the USA´s missils so close to Moscow. NATO has been the biggest asset the USA has had to control the world and do whatever they wanted to do anywhere
It’s the view of a Spanish citizen tucked nicely in the West and NATO embrace since the 70ties. Now imagine being Georgian or Ukrainian or Moldovan who were on the brink of joining NATO and now get zero arm forces in case of RU invasion. I think bordering RU could change one’s perspective. Ask FIN or SWE. Anyways I think it’s logical at the time neither RU nor NATO seeked any arrangement regarding enlargement. At the time neither view each other as the enemy. Eastern Europe was left to decide its fate and that’s why you have states like Serbia not wanting to join NATO and no one’s pressuring them. As I said there were talks of RU joining NATO and eu and at that time I thought they would. However after 2002 Dugin came up with the idea of Russian world just in time when Putin s two terms as a president envisioned in the RU constitution were coming to an end. He became brutal in order to preserve power. It all came tumbling down in 2013 with the maidan Ukrainian protest where it was obvious Ukraine is heading to the west and has chosen democratic path. Ukr with all its huge problems have always had free elections since 1991 unlike RU. That and the fear he could end up as Sadam made Russian people prisoners of him. Of course most were manipulated to hate the west. Indeed until recently NATO wasn’t used against RU. And I hope it never will be. It certainly would never attack RU first and Putin knows it. He simply wanna stay in power indefinitely to “save RU”…
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3 hours ago, debord said:
Firstly, folk really need to get over this notion that unless you're just shrieking 'HAMAS ARE EVIL! PUTIN IS EVIL!' repeatedly, you are 'justifying' them. I raised the nuances of the situation in Ukraine in response to the suggestion that Israel apartheid is 'complicated' while what's happening in Ukraine is not. I am no fan of Putin.
Now to repeat myself, NATO was created solely as a counterweight about the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union is not modern Russia. And modern Russia isn't even, apparently, what it was for much of the 00s when Western governments helped put Putin in power and viewed him as an ally. The treatment of Putin is akin to something from 1984, where he went from an ally of the west to an evil bogeyman at dizzying speed.
NATO expansion east, in violation of assurances given to the then-USSR, happened at a time when Yeltsin's Russia was a weak, crumbling state. It posed no threat. The reason it happened was to expand the sphere of influence of the USA and try to ensure no revival of Russian power, taking advantage of the collapse of the Warsaw Pact. The USA has its own interests, which is why it does everything it can to undermine states around it which do not align with them, yet it faces little of the opproprium for this that Putin does. And yes, in the early 00s Putin floated the idea of Russia joining NATO. Discussions evidently developed and there were closer partnerships agreed but accounts differ as to why it never happened - some academics believe that the USA was arrogant as Russia seemed like a spent force at the time, others believe that Russia ultimately rejected it.
What's in no dispute is that people have been warning for decades that NATO expansion east would lead to war. George Kennan, credited with being the architect of the USA's containment policy, predicted in 1998 that Russia would "gradually react adversely" to NATO expansion and it would be a "tragic mistake". William J Burns, who is the current director of the CIA, has warned for years, beginning in the 90s, the NATO expansion would lead to an aggressive response from Russia. In 1997 50 eminent foreign policy experts wrote an open letter to President Clinton warning that NATO expansion east was a "policy error of historic proportions". The Russian Ambassador to the USA warned in 2008 that Ukraine entering NATO would be a "red line" for Russia. NATO Secretary Jens Stoltenberg told the EU Parliament THIS YEAR that Russia had sent a draft treaty in 2021 where NATO would promise to further eastern expansion, promising not to invade Ukraine if it was signed.
Putin doesn't want the USSR revised. Putin is not a communist. He explicitly said that while many people have fond feelings for the USSR, if they wanted it revived "they had no brains".
To repeat: I do not 'justify' Putin. I do not support him. I do not support the invasion. I merely give context and refuse to treat foreign affairs like it's a game of goodies and baddies, when our own governments do pretty much everything we loudly condemn in others.
Sorry, but to teach a Bulgarian what USSR or Russia was and is is pretty funny. I perfectly well know what the Russian empire was, what USSR was, what Russia is presently. Actually, most Eastern Europeans, especially those coming from ex communist states, are the ones who have LIVED the RU influence.
No official/documented assurances for not expanding NATO were given to USSR. Gorbachov says that was discussed, but nothing written down came out of it. RU didn't protest NATO expansion post 97, into Eastern Europe, until 2008 promise that Georgia and Ukraine would be accepted.
I wasn't commenting on WHY NATO was created. Of course NATO WAS created, because of USSR. I was commenting on the fact that post communism for most Eastern Europeans NATO guaranteed freedom, investment, development. It was a guarantee that RU would not invade tommorow. And most Eastern Europeans might have looked hysterical in the 90ties for a Western European (Poland warned Germano-french EU engine of the dangers of stronger Russia) but in the end they were right to push for entering into NATO. If they didn't, they might have been the next Georgia, Ukraine or Moldova, that didn't manage to enter into NATO before the respective RU aggression. USA didn't press the Eastern Europeans to join NATO. All of the states joined willingly, because they wanted protection from RU. And as it turned out: rightfully so. The fact that Ukraine wanted NATO/EU integration post 2008/2013 shouldn't come as a surprise: it is bordering several NATO/EU states and it is very easy to see how Poland or Romania or Hungary have developed especially after EU accession. It is not shocking UKR wants the same. Historically UKR have been for centuries in the Polish-lithuanian commonwealth. Both Poland & Lithuania are wishing EU since 2004.
The fact that some US analisysts or CIA officers have warned NATO expansion could lead to war doesn't mean NATO isn't vital for many states and millions of ppl. Ukraine war proved how important NATO membership is still in 2023. Its no wonder FIN and SWE are joining NATO. I am convinced NATO expansion benefitted Europe immensely, especially Eastern Europe with its fragile democracy. NATO was not aggressive towards RU until last year.
The draft treaty RU sent to USA (mind you, in RU eyes Europe shouldn't have a seat on the negotiating table, although their proposal concerns devision of Europe) in late 2021 demanded that NATO returns to its pre 1997 borders: meaning pre Eastern European expansion. No Eastern European nation could have been OK with it and I m shocked you don't understand this. Or act like you don't understand it. Or like it was a sane or acceptable proposal.
Putin wants USSR revived. And yes, he isn't a communists, he wants the oligarchists, fashist, "conservative", anti liberal, antidemocratic regime (= antihuman) that is now in power in RU to be implemented in Eastern Europe too, in previous USSR/Warsaw pact borders. Putin has said countless times that the biggest geopolitical mistake of 20 century was USSR dissolution. No matter what he says, he is a liar. We should look at his actions, not his words. The fact that he invaded a free country is a proof he has zero respect for international law and sovereignty of any state, that he deems weaker than RU. The way RU acts in 2022-2023 is dangerous and unacceptable, no matter how you try to sugarcoat it.
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Hamas is a godawful organization, that should be eradicated.
I wonder how peace could ever be acheved in Israel. There is too much hate on both sides. Maybe a dual state? Federal state, where one can veto the other? Because I dont know how the West Bank would be given to Palestina as there are many Israeli settlements already...
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1 hour ago, GOD said:
Who says it has to be either what we have now or this scenario?
The US has around what 750 military bases around the globe? Let's not forget the disasters all over, the chaos with Cuba, Venezuela... the wars that they have caused, the catastrophes, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, to name a few, and now Ukraine.
Im glad that some countries are finally fed up and want to form something else. Let them have their own currency if they wish, why use continue to use the currency of a bully.
I didn’t know USA
invaded Ukraine 
. I guess that says all about your credibility. Next I guess I ll be stuck in a discussion whether earth 
is flat, there is no covid and the Jews are ruling the world. By byeee
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On 4/8/2023 at 1:55 PM, karbatal said:
I’m surprised that BRICS thing is still even considered. Death people on the street during COVID in India and the Brasil mess along the disaster of Russia…
Even China is no longer considered a trustful economic partner (it never was). The EU has announced a “decoupling” with China. Frankly, they can grow all they want: they are not growing in real social prosperity, which is what matters.
So true. Do the Chinese or the Turks or the Russians care that the 10 people around the powerful made 2-3 milliards more than last year? I highly doubt it. But that's what's going on with "economic wonders" China, Turkey, Russia. It takes one visit to understand that Greeks, with all their crisis, live miles better that the Turkish ppl, who we are supposed to believe are living in an economic powerhouse. Nothing of that wealth goes to ordinary ppl (unlike Greece), so what's the point?
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3 hours ago, GOD said:
Why not ? Maybe they are fed up by being bullied by US. Not everyone supports the Wars that US is behind.
Well then China would gladly step in to rid us of rights that we take for granted: lgbtq rights, women rights, minority rights. I m sure it is not fine to live there and in such a society.
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On 8/16/2023 at 4:19 PM, karbatal said:
Disgusting creature. And the way some Spanish media has been almost sorry for him. Scum he and those so called journalists.
Horrid. The chef wants to present it like he was a victim of unwanted advances. However one who is "suffering" from unwanted advances wouldnt travel half the world with his "sexual predator" or spend most of his days/nights with him. Wonder what has happened really.
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On 7/19/2023 at 8:16 PM, Raider of the lost Ark said:
The guy is a little bit dumb. Isn't he? His suggestion is to flee to Europe? A place where most so called conservatives are more liberal than the Democrats. Well, he may be talking about Hungary or Poland?
There are some very dangerous right wing parties in EU, lets not kid ourselves. Id argue they are MORE dangerous than the republicans, because if left alone, they could push for the next EU country exiting the EU. Having many European countries that quarrel among themselves is a very dark situation, if history is any indication. At the same time republicans may be crazy, but USA is still one country. Its time for United States of Europe!
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3 hours ago, karbatal said:
Why should regular people suffer? I never understood sanctions that make regular people, among them oppressed people, far worse.
Because if you look at interviews with regular RU ppl on Youtube (at least in Moscow and Saint Petersburg), its obvious most want to disassociate with the madman, the war etc. They do not want to talk politics, do not want to think about it and make their best to prove they have zero input in the war. However even if Putin has illegally occupied the most powerful position in the country, they still have a lot to do with the war and are probably the only ones who could stop the madness. If for example 20 million ppl descended on Moscow, I don't think Putin would manage to deal with them with the harsh measures he used for the thousands who dared to protest. The others are more ... how should I say... stupid and are actually supporting the madman and are believing his propaganda (including the antiUKR, antiWest, antilgbtq propaganda). They have to understand there is a price to be paid for the support of the neonazi regime. Why should they be allowed to visit the West if they are antiWestern, want Europe to be weakened etc?
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On 5/14/2023 at 11:10 PM, promise to try said:
there has been a leage of information from ukraine: the washington post has, well, post it. zellensky was/is planning to attack russian land. And apparently the NATO is not allowing him to do it.
anyways, they have already attacked the kremlin, "somebody" tried to do something with a dron, they also tried to kill puttin a month ago, another "somebody" tried to destroy the pipeline in the north sea...
Even if UKR was planning an attack on RU land, I wouldn't blame them. RU has been attacking UKR for a year now. Why should UKR NOT attack RU territory. If for example France attacked Spain, would Spain be obliged to keep the war within its territory? Why? In the end of the day UKR keep getting devastated by RU, while RU suffers (no direct) consequences of its aggression.
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14 hours ago, promise to try said:
this war´s coverage has become really sad. I mean, I´m sure there have been lies, or half-trues since day one. but poor ucranian people are in the middle of a war that I´m afraid is not related with their country, or not only with their country and puttin. when puttin stops being a problem, politicians will cease caring about the citizens that have lost everything...
How the war is unrelated to Ukraine?
How exactly would Putin stop being a problem?
How we are not sure that in Putins place won't appear a worse "tzar"?
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4 hours ago, Lolo said:
I hope Turkey flushes Erdogan today!
HOPEFULLY. Its long overdue for Turkey to come back to 2023!!!
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21 hours ago, promise to try said:
apparently the idea to stop using the dolar this year. But I don´t really know if it´s real information or not.It would made sense, to finish with USA´s economic power, but I really don´t know
Why would it made sense to "finish with USA economic power"? Do people really think that a Chinese led world would be better than what it is today? China where no Westerner would ever want to live in? The autocratic China with 0 rights for the ppl?
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9 hours ago, karbatal said:
The geopolitical situation of Turkey makes me wonder what would happen if Erdogan falls . Could it be another Egypt situation where more religious people take control and cut liberties? What do you think @elijah?
Hmmm. Erdogan has already cut many liberties, so I couldn’t see it getting worse in that regard. I m not familar with Egypt, but in Turkey there is a relatively strong tradition with secularism, dating back to Ataturk, who is from Thessaloniki and modernised Turkey, inspired by the short progress from newly independent states from Ottoman yoke Bulgaria and Greece. He practically established what we see today as Turkey, denouncing the Ottoman Empire, including pointing out the backwardness of Islam. Since then the military have been the protector of secularism in Turkey as the majority of the military personnel have graduated in the West. It’s no coincidence that the putsch against Erdogan some years ago was organised by the military.
The problem until Erdogan was the cultural clash between the pro western Western Turkey with Istanbul and the conservative Anatolia. Erdogan pretty much undid the work of Aataturk promoting Islam, overemphasising the religious upbringing and satanising the west. It’s really hard to predict who and what will lead Turkey post Erdogan. However if there is a Muslim majority state that could be liberal and pro western, it’s Turkey. I think in the worst case scenario if it reverts to being a parliamentary republic and not presidential it could be quite liberal and for sure much more than at the time of Erdogan. I don’t think the religious fanatics are that many or much influential and that many liberal people there, especially in Istanbul, would accept Turkey being ruled as Islamic state. Having said that, Turkey must focus on educating Anatolia if it wants to fully embrace western ideas. -
38 minutes ago, Lolo said:
I really hoped that maybe this could ‚help‘ bring Erdogan and Assad down. Maybe a tiny positive development amidst all this devastation. But they will spin the narrative in their favor as always. I expect Erdogan to shift the blame on EU somehow.
On this particular case, its simply absurd to think he will find a way to put the blame on EU. However I wouldn't put it past him. Maybe he ll claim that EU should be held responsible, because it hasn't accepted Turkey and as a result Turkey hasn't adopted the relevant EU legislation, dealing with building business and its control? But I shouldn't give him any ideas. I strongly dislike him, because he turned Turkey from a comparatively free democratic country into a full fledged authoritarian state.
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4 hours ago, Martin B. said:
True Blood was bad BUT I watched it anyway just to see this gorgeous very tall man half naked all the time for no reason.
That's the plot you should be watching True Blood about!
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Just now, runa said:
Let's all go there and have some fun !
Apparently there are still tickets for M in that stadium,
Actually i am really thinking about seeing M there :). Still haven't bought tickets though. And I NEED to post this here:
and lets GO!
Israel and Hamas war
in Politics and World Events
Posted
What? And why are you speaking to me in such a tone? Did I ever insult you like you are doing here? And for what: pointing out that its not realistic what you are proposing: "Palestine shouldn’t even have to share the land of what nowadays is Israel"?