mnino
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Posts posted by mnino
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10 minutes ago, spazz said:
LONG LIVE PUTIN
THE GREATEST PRESIDENT ON THE PLANET
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Almost no mention of Allepo in any major news outlet in America. And our Nobel Peace Prize winner seemingly turned a blind eye, Evita, on the matter. Now, the question is how long will Trump blame Obama for his foreign policy fiasco.
Oh, but Hollywood will reward immensely a movie showing all of today's atrocities twenty years from now. Meanwhile the script is writing itself right under our noses...
Heaven help us all.
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Ooh, I have consciously avoided this thread for a while because I figured things would calm down but...
Oh, well...
That's some truth tea there @Pud Whacker
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38 minutes ago, ULIZOS said:
A present for meakermeak
Wow! He spoke everything I've been trying to say but, of course, with much more eloquence. Thanks for sharing that.
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2 minutes ago, Hector said:
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2 hours ago, KalamazooJay said:
There's some great dialogue in this forum. And I've never gotten the impression that ANYONE here is truly pro Trump. I just think there's people in here playing devils advocate and forcing people to take a lomg, painful, hard view of what's going on in America and why/how so many individuals looked at that madman as a savior.
So, I appreciate this thread. Especially since the nightmare of a Trump presidency came true. It's been therapeutic.
I also don't believe anyone in here, minus one or two, who truly preferred Trump over Hillary.
It has been! Thanks for engaging in the conversation.
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8 minutes ago, MeakMaker said:
No we cannot discuss Trump negatively here. This forum has become a shrine to Trump and the Republican Party! If you call out Tump for his ignorance they will question the meaning of ignorance and where it comes from. If you condemn his supporters they will try to tell you they have valid reasons to stand by him.
Im waiting for at least 4 or 5 members to take their time and analize each and one word I typed concluding I'm dead wrong.
Oh shut up.
Your hyperboles and overuse of the exclamation point (!!!) are just tiresome at this point. No one is defending Trump here.
Do you want everybody to just repeat: Trump is a racist!!! He hates women!!! He's the new Putin!!! America is racist!!!
Is that what you want?
What's the point?
Dude, you're not helping your cause.
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3 hours ago, MeakMaker said:
Yes it's not going to happen anytime soon and that's why we are where we are. So let's not say we haven't got the solution to all our problems as we just choose to turn the other way.
What I find frustrating is the way some people on here are trying to discuss the situation. As if the conservatives have got nothing to do with what's going on.. As if those racist, sexist, homophobic people don't belong to right political sections. As if the conservatives never had a white supremacy agenda. I'm disgusted by the level of ignorance; the ever increasing need to point fingers; the justification or reasoning for certain backward views! Who cares where it comes from or why it's happening? Would that make people feel any better? You can't rationalise hate! Even in criminal courts they are not interested in the reasons why but they just convict the criminal based on the crime. So let's find reasons so that we can all sympathise with the racists or the backwards people. Oh but they lost their jobs; they haven't got no money; they feel betrayed. Big effing deal! So what? When will we ever learn that turning to hate will never solve our problems? Are Americans that stupid to realise that? I'm disgusted but somehow I'm not shocked. Ultimately we deserve what's coming.
Well, I guess the feeling is mutual. I will start by saying that I'm probably not the only one frustrated with they way you have been discussing this election in this thread. I don't think you understand how you come off to others by the way you post. But, you are entitled to express yourself in whatever way you want so be it.
I will, however, disagree with pretty much everything you posted here. Starting with this:
As if those racist, sexist, homophobic people don't belong to right political sections.
There are racist, sexist, homophobic people in the left too. Maybe the majority leans towards the right but conservatives don't have a monopoly on these folks. They belong wherever they want to belong.
As if the conservatives never had a white supremacy agenda.
White supremacy agendas have been part of both parties throughout American history. So, yes, your statement is correct. However, while white supremacists may identify better with conservative views nowadays, it does not mean that conservatives currently have a white supremacy agenda. Some conservatives may be supremacists but that doesn't mean that all of them are. This kind of mentality is what creates bigotry. Lumping a whole class of individual by one single common thread and them labeling them will only exacerbate the "them against us" problem. Guess what? Most terrorists are Muslim, are all Muslims terrorists? Some Mexicans are rapists, are all Mexicans rapists? Please stop calling racists/xenophobes/homophobes all conservatives and blue collar workers that voted for Trump.
I'm disgusted by the level of ignorance; the ever increasing need to point fingers; the justification or reasoning for certain backward views!
What is ignorance but a lack of education and/or information? People aren't born and decide to become racists. It is a learned trait that spreads with the lack of proper education and economic opportunities. But let's not assume that only the uneducated and poor can be racists/xenophobes. I and other posters have tried (to no avail) to point out the kind of environments that have fostered and fed these ideologies in America. The whole point was to analyze how the Democrats lost the vote of the blue collar worker to a polarizing Republican newcomer. Most posters have not justified racism or backward views, they did try to convey that a vote for Trump was more than just a vote against minorities/women/immigrants.There's a big difference between the former and the latter.
Who cares where it comes from or why it's happening? Would that make people feel any better? You can't rationalise hate!
Well, not caring about why or where a problem comes from will never help you solve a problem. It is the same as blaming the hate against America in the Middle East on Islamic ideology and disregarding the economic and trade policies that have affected Muslims in that region. And again, no one is rationalizing hate. Calm down.
Even in criminal courts they are not interested in the reasons why but they just convict the criminal based on the crime.
Prosecutors often try to establish motive (reasons) in order to convince the jury that the defendant is guilty. People are judged by their intent but motives can still play a big part in determining wether or not a jury convicts a person. This statement is just ridiculous.
So let's find reasons so that we can all sympathise with the racists and backwards people. Oh but they lost their jobs; they haven't got no money; they feel betrayed. Big effing deal! So what?
Who cares, right? They're only human beings. How about them Syrian refugees? They're Muslim and their views on gays and women are backwards according to your Western worldview. "Oh but they lost their homes; they haven't got no money; they feel betrayed. Big effing deal! So what?" You sir, Mr. Stand Against Hate Warrior, will only instigate hate by your generalizations, condescension and disregard for people that are different than you and didn't have the luxury of learning as much as you have. Again, no one is asking anyone to sympathize with any racist or "backwards people" (what does that mean? uneducated? old school?). No one is asking anyone to condone bigotry, what we were trying to show is that this election was not decided solely (if at all) on hate.
When will we ever learn that turning to hate will never solve our problems?
You did include yourself in the question so, when are you ever going to learn that the way you address "the backwards people" will never solve the problem. Are these people irredeemable? If so, what are your suggestions? Lock them all up and lose the keys? Are you solving any problems by hating them?
Are Americans that stupid to realise that?
Again, you are lumping a whole diverse nation as a homogeneous group and on top of that you're implying that Americans in general don't have a clear view about our own racial and class problems. Condescending much?
I'm disgusted but somehow I'm not shocked.
When someone says "I'm not shocked" it implies that you already expected this outcome from us, silly Americans. Stay on your high horse because America in the end will be just fine.
Ultimately we deserve what's coming.
We who? Americans? What is it that you and I deserve? America becoming Russia? People living in concentration camps?
Unlike you, I have faith in this country and its people. We have more that unites us than what separates us even though the media tries its hardest to tell us otherwise. Let's agree on disagreeing and best of luck to you.
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17 minutes ago, ULIZOS said:
This is all fine and dandy, but you completely fail to accept the fact that these people have been manipulated because of their circumstances. Not the other way around. Many of them have taken blow after blow, and they're somewhere between feeling hopeless and desperate.
The right used this to their advantage and manipulated them, Trump namely, and it all started with that Tea Party. When there's a perceived danger, in this case Muslims and Mexicas, it gets people to the polling stations.The Democrats offered them NOTHING this time around and I just think writing post after post after post about how racist and awful they are does absolutely nothing whatsoever.
It gets really, really tiring after a while. We get it, they're uneducated, racist, xenophobic and we're ALL above that.
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21 hours ago, KalamazooJay said:
I agree with many points you've raised. Good points too.
However......
And I'll say this again I grew UP in the rust belt and more specifically, in a depressed community. And let me tell you this:
When those of us in the "township" got our drivers licenses, we were given one warning: Do NOT cross "the river" onto East Gennessee Road.
Why? Because that was the ghetto. That's where the blacks lived. Where the gangs were. This was said in the 80's until I got mine 1996 and is being said to this day.
So, what did I do? I crossed the bridge. It wasn't so bad. I actually found a smokey old coffee shop that I hung out at daily. Wrote in a journal, listened to Tori Amos and drank tea.
Whats my point?
That there's always, ALWAYS, been a nasty underbelly of subtle racism in the rust belt that was exploited by Trump AND EXPLODED into a mainstream acceptable way of life. Truth.
You're KIDDING yourself if you think the people on the outskirts of Saginaw county Michigan were ever going to vote for Bernie. This goes for many, many other areas of the Midwest and south for that matter.
They weren't. Why? Because many of these individuals told me they'd never do so.
Trump is their champion. Like he said, he could shoot someone in 5th avenue and still have their vote.
KJ,
I was not contesting the fact that there is a historical legacy of racism in the rust belt. My point was quite the opposite. My main point was that no one would be calling these blue collar folks racists right now if they had voted for Bernie Sanders (which is not inconceivable). I illustrated below how the voting went in three of the four states that "turned red" for Trump to show that these folks for the most part didn't have a problem voting for a Democrat in the past (especially for Obama). If the racists are a majority, then this majority elected Obama. Now, if they are the minority, then how could they have elected Trump?
I'm not trying to disqualify your experience. There are racist people in the Rust Belt. I just don't believe that ALL blue collar voters supported Trump because of racial/gender issues. They voted because of economical reasons. However, they ALL are now being labelled bigots and xenophobes.
Once again, if Bernie had won these states (which he could if you look at how much support the Democratic party had in the Rust Belt for the past 4 election cycles) nobody would be calling blue collar workers racists on the media. They would be congratulating them for standing against hate. Well, where were the Democrats that just didn't bother voting this time? Why weren't they standing up against hate? The Obama coalition didn't think that Trump was bad enough to make them vote for her.
The numbers speak for themselves. The Democrats lost this election because they neglected the blue collar workers that used to vote for them.
MICHIGAN
2000 Gore (51.3%) beats Bush (46.2%) - 4,232,711 voted
.jpg/400px-WI2000(2).jpg)
2004 Kerry (51.3%) beats Bush (47.8%) - 4,839,252 voted
2008 Obama (57.3%) destroys McCain (40.89%) - 5,010,129 voted
2012 Obama (54.21%) kills Romney (44.71%) - 4,730,961 voted
2016 - Trump (47.6%) barely beats Hillary (47.3%) - 4,790,917 voted so far (turn out was higher than 2012 but less than 2008 and 2004)
Now check how red the state became in 2016: http://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/michigan
OHIO
2008 - Obama won
2012 - Obama won
Now check the 2016 results: http://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/ohio
WISCONSIN
2008 - Obama won
2012 - Obama won
Now check the 2016 results: http://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/wisconsin
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2 minutes ago, KalamazooJay said:
Where are you from? I'm genuinely curious.
To answer your question bluntly, yes a lot of them are. They may not realize or understand that they are, but a lot of these individuals from Youngstown OH, Flint MI, and rural Pennsylvania absolutely have xenophobic, homophobic, and racist tendencies. It's not based out of a hatred for minorities, but out of a fear of them perpetrated by the right. And the Donald rathched up that fear and threw gasoline on an already burning fire.
Now, before you come for me, know this. I grew up in an extremely depressed community until I was 21. Saginaw, MI. This city has gotten progressively worse economically over the last 30 years. The bottom has yet to fall out. Population declining, the roads are from a third world country, and its core industries have been hollowed out.
I still go home every 3 months or so to see my family, mom, dad and sister. Even THEY have become more racist. I've never heard some of the racial slurs from them that I've heard over the last 6-8 years. It's horrifying. And when I visit my friends from H.S, I hear the same shit.
Calling Mi* Obama an ape.
Saying that Barrack is from Kenya.
This isn't fringe thinking! I actually KNOW people who say and think these things.
Indivuduals in these declining rust belt cities have been made to believe in white nationalism without even knowing it. That's what I find so unbelievably scary.
As you have mentioned, these folks in the Rust Belt are going through a tough time for a while now just like the African Americans, Latinos and other minorities have been for decades. But the kicker is that if they complain about their disadvantage (not being more educated and therefore not getting better jobs) they are reminded that because they are white they will never completely have it as bad as a racial minority. You see, they still have white privilege to help them. So, should they be content with their current economic situation because other folks have it worse? Doesn't that sound absurd? Can you see how that kind of rhetoric from the Democratic base can breed the kind of white nationalism you also mentioned? I've yet to find a Republican talking about triggers and white privilege. The democratic party was very vocal throughout this campaign about defending the Black Lives Matter movement, the illegal immigrants and refugees. But if Bernie Sanders had not brought up the blue collar worker situation front and center, I'm not sure Hillary would have done anything to move from the center to the left.
Now, I'm not defending the bitterness that some blue collar workers may have fostered towards people that they think are getting better treatment (or at least, more attention) than they are, but to dismiss their frustrations with a system that has left them behind is only going to alienate them. Oh, but they should just suck it up and go to school and get better jobs... Well, you can say the same about other minorities (but if you do, you may be called a few names).
Ironically, people in the Rust Belt areas mostly voted for Obama because of how pro-union the Democrats have been. The Dems have been claiming themselves to be the party of the blue collar worker for decades now while painting the Repubs as pro big business. But as you also mentioned, these places have gotten progressively worse economically over the last 30 years and Hillary was a continuation of the same old same old in their eyes. Did anybody believe that she would do anything different than Obama did? Blue collar workers surely didn't believe it. Bernie Sanders would have gotten their vote and nobody would be calling them racists and xenophobes right now.
So, I'm not disagreeing with you per se but wanted to expand the notion that blue collar workers voted solely because of race and gender.
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23 minutes ago, MeakMaker said:
As in the same vein with Brexit those people that no one here wants to mention went to vote because someone finally started to speak for them. If it wasn't for those extra few votes Trump wouldn't have won. Same thing happened with Brexit. Finally someone took upon themselves to represent them and they went out to vote. And their vote mattered in the end. I'm sure a lot of people who didn't go to vote regretted it to after hearing the results. Those people were so pumped up! Didn't you see Trumps conventions? Didn't you see all the hate going on there? Hate against African Americans; hate against Hispanics; hate against women, LGBT; hate against Muslims. But people are not paying attention to that. So I'd say apathy is also to blame. In the end there's still this other ugly side of society. Hate is alive and rampant and maybe that what peeps need to discuss. How to overcome hate; how to live in a society that help immigrants to integrate instead of looking at them with resentment and mistrust. The immigration issue was amongst one of the most important in both the US election and the UK referendum. Anti immigration views won both times.
And we will learn from history only when we stop repeating history!
Racists, homophobes and xenophobes have been voting since voting began. Your idea that only now they suddenly decided to vote is flawed in my opinion. Trump won because of the blue collar vote in the Rust Belt (Wisconsin, Ohio and Pennsylvania in particular). Are you implying that these are the racists, homophobes and xenophobes?
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3 minutes ago, Hector said:
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9 minutes ago, Kim said:
Of course it matters. Learning from history, even recent history, is the only way to prevent a recurrence of something. Four years is a long time, but not as long as eight. Just like the UK is probably gonna be stuck with the Tories for 20 years because of the lack of an effective opposition.
And it's far too simplistic to say that all the racists and misogynists of America suddenly appeared and won it for Trump. Haven't you been reading the threads?
Yes, it's a very bad thing. So NOW what?
Merci!
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17 minutes ago, Pud Whacker said:
What I've gathered from this election is hate and discrimination is ok as long as you wear a mask of love and cover your tracks.
People with a college degree are incapable of hating and discriminating, right? They learned in college all about privilege and triggers. They could never.
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5 minutes ago, spazz said:
Who is gonna perform at the inauguration? Beyonce or Taylor swift? 🐍 🐝
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35 minutes ago, MeakMaker said:
Why redicule my post when in all probability something is bound to happen in terms of gay rights if you're looking at Trumps cabinet. Let's not forget how the moral right wing majority has always been against gay rights. Do you think those people will carry on making things easier for gay people?
And why would Trump who wasn't even elected as a president have so many close relations with Putin? What could he possibly do with him that the entire US house of representives couldn't do?
Im sorry but I have all the rights to be suspicious... please, don't redicule people just because you think they are a little OTT. Remember electing Trump as president is OTT too.
Yes, you have the right to be suspicious. The whole world has no clue what this guy is going to do.
However, I thought your histrionics were more than a little OTT and I thought a bit of sarcasm would go along with it. My sense of humor just couldn't let it pass. But I'm not here to offend anyone. I did find snippets of your post to be ridiculous. Does that make you ridiculous in my eyes? No. People are more than their opinion on a certain subject.
Don't take it personal. I honestly hope you can calm down. Things may get worse for a while but America in not doomed.
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3 minutes ago, ULIZOS said:
I didn't even want to comment on that. Making fun of Gaga was like an ongoing joke for me. It was stupid, silly, entertaining, she's ridiculous, whatever. But this was just fucking disastrous. This was too much for me. Her people called up Clinton's people and Clinton's people, being so out of touch with reality, were probably like "yeah let's put her on stage ON ELECTION NIGHT, the youngins will LOVE that!" Again, this is NOT what American needed / wanted. They didn't want the establishment, so what did they do? They shoved Hollywood down our throats. All those elitist assholes giving their opinions 24/7. I'm so sure some man who's been on welfare since his factory job left the U.S. really fucking cares about that. Or someone who's having a really hard time making ends meet was like WOW George Clooney says I should vote for Clinton! What a great idea!
But yes, let's just simplify this whole, entire mess into: it was all racism.
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14 minutes ago, ULIZOS said:
If this is what you got from these disastrous elections, then it's very, VERY probable that Trump will win again in 2020.
Hillary lost because she's a career politician. She's part of a political dynasty. That's not what America wanted. Even if she got 200,000 more votes than Trump, she got 5 million less than Obama. People were NOT excited. She was the anti-Trump vote.
She offered NOTHING to a lot of pissed off people who've turned their legitimate concerns, desires and complaints into hate and built up anger, thanks 100% to Trump and the Tea Party and all those politicians who've fed off of that. No alternative, nothing. And that's white people.
Let's not even talk about democrats. Millions of democrats and millennials spent the last 8 years fighting the 1%, fighting police brutality, fighting career politicians, similar things to what white rural people have been fighting for who feel increasingly disenfranchised by the "elites" or whatever they say. And what did Clinton give them? I mean, seriously tell me because I don't know. Her campaign basically pandered to every single minority without offering real solutions and it came off as sincere. Her running mate giving speeches in Spanish?
It was cringeworthy. All words, zero substance. The day she announced she was running she released a video with gay couples hugging and lesbians hugging and brown people running happily in the meadows. What the fuck does that even mean?
She joined the Panderer Express™
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10 minutes ago, dollhouse said:
Hillary lost because Obama. The white straight men and their wives had enough of black president. A woman after that would've been just too much.
More facts, huh?
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2 minutes ago, dollhouse said:
yes and its a fact.
Well, who can argue with facts? Right?
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10 minutes ago, Nightshade said:
Dubya was elected in 2000, went on vacation for weeks at a time and ignored the CIA memo about potential upcoming terror attacks. The U.S. suffered the worst attack on our nation in his first year in office with more Americans killed on our soil than any other time. His party made gains in the House and Senate in 2002 and he was re-elected in 2004.
Learn your history. Desperate men do anything to remain in power.
Demographics have changed a lot for these last 12 years and Trump only won because he ran against Hillary Clinton. He will probably end up having less votes than McCain and Romney in the end. So, unless he improves his numbers next time, he will lose. The blue collar democrats that overwhelmingly voted for Trump had previously voted for Bernie Sanders. Hillary married the man that signed NAFTA, that was just too easy for Trump AND Sanders to exploit.
Could he be re-elected? Yes, if he does a good job in improving the economy because in the end it's all about the economy. My point was that if he does not deliver his promises, he'll probably be out and, depending on how bad he is, he can bring down the Senate majority with him. I don't see how that is unreasonable.
Trump / US politics thread 🚽
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