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tumbleweedt

Elitists
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Posts posted by tumbleweedt

  1. 13 minutes ago, ULIZOS said:

    This is all fine and dandy, but you completely fail to accept the fact that these people have been manipulated because of their circumstances. Not the other way around. Many of them have taken blow after blow, and they're somewhere between feeling hopeless and desperate. 

    The right used this to their advantage and manipulated them, Trump namely, and it all started with that Tea Party. When there's a perceived danger, in this case Muslims and Mexicas, it gets people to the polling stations. 

    The Democrats offered them NOTHING this time around and I just think writing post after post after post about how racist and awful they are does absolutely nothing whatsoever. 

    It gets really, really tiring after a while. We get it, they're uneducated, racist, xenophobic and we're ALL above that. :wacko:

    .

  2. 3 minutes ago, Nikki said:

    I totally understand what you're saying @KalamazooJay

    I went to school in what some call the most dangerous place in the country. I heard so many horror stories, and in all those years, I always felt perfectly fine, no matter the perception the place had and the urban legends,.. never had any problems. even people who are for a multicultural way of living and as left as they come..may still tell you to watch out when you go to a specific area because of "what they hear.." it's really sorta ingrained in people.. it's racist too, even if it's less direct or talked about.

    Where did you go to school?

  3. 29 minutes ago, mnino said:

    But if Bernie Sanders had not brought up the blue collar worker situation front and center, I'm not sure Hillary would have done anything to move from the center to the left. 

    these places have gotten progressively worse economically over the last 30 years and Hillary was a continuation of the same old same old in their eyes. Did anybody believe that she would do anything different than Obama did? Blue collar workers surely didn't believe it. Bernie Sanders would have gotten their vote and nobody would be calling them racists and xenophobes right now. 

    Agree.

  4. 5 minutes ago, MeakMaker said:

    So is that Muslims are terrorists! Blacks are criminals! Hispanics are stupid and lazy! Immigrants steal your air! Women are sluts! Gays are immorals who spread diseases! Don't try to use reverse psychology. You know the right is just as fucked up and they've been using scaremonging as part of their agenda long before anyone else! 

    Only the other side is bad, or it's "reverse psychology"?

  5. 2 hours ago, Kim said:

    I think most people are just trying to understand what on earth went wrong in the Democrat camp. Or are you going to say "nothing"?

    From an outsiders point of view, Hillary was USELESS in those televised debates (granted that's the only campaigning of hers that I (and most people) saw) But who on EARTH thought that standing grinning and silent with that "just let him hang himself" mantra was going to work? I certainly didn't.

     

    Agree. So much for Hillary the Destroyer.

  6. 6 hours ago, Raider of the lost Ark said:

    Typical Trump mindset. Just say something you have no proof of and pretend it's true. In this case you can add pure ignorance. Clinton has never come across as a "stumbling baffoon". The contrary is true. Once she is in full swing she destroys everyone else. If she would be still working as a lawyer she was one of the most successful ones around.

    And given questions? Hasn't that Fox anchor just insinuate that Trump was given some questions before the debate on Fox? And that Trump threatened her not to ask particular questions that would make him look bad?

    Never say never! :provoke:

  7. 1 hour ago, Kim said:

    NYT 1932.

    If the Nazis are in Govt. they'll become more moderate as there's no way they can keep their election promises.

    Learn from history people. LEARN FROM HISTORY.

     

    NAZI.jpg

    The possibility of the rise of a new Hitler should never be ruled out. We should always remain vigilant. Of course Hitler had already tried unsuccessfully to overthrow the government of Germany (Weimar Republic) ten years before ascending to the position of chancellor (1923/1933); was convicted and jailed, providing him with some "quiet time" to put in black and white his raging antisemitism and his maniacal view of the world in his book Mein Kampf. Then, there were of course the Hitler Jugend, various paramilitary organizations, etc. When Hitler took power, I don't believe there were widespread protests like now with Trump. People ARE vigilant now. Hitler used the burning of the Reichstag as a pretext for taking ABSOLUTE power. 

    Trump should be and will be watched closely. Again, vigilance and holding him to account is important. But comparing him to Hitler... I've seen these side by side comparisons of Hitler and Trump. It states that both of them wanted to deport people. Well, Obama deported millions during his tenure. Trump can be called a populist. But comparing him to Hitler...... If people want to persist in identifying the rise of a new Hitler.....they would find a better fit in Mr. Erdogan, President and strongman of Turkey.

  8. 4 minutes ago, MeakMaker said:

    They should and they usually are. And the most important thing is they haven't got many members because most of them are actually old farts! But I think they will try to facilitate them into having more recruits, into making the young ones think they're right. A child might now think it's okay to be racist if you know what I mean. Our human dignity which says everyone is equal; everyone is the same might disappear if their ancient, ignorant, backwards opinions are widespread. 

    Exactly. Education and ensuring children are protected from extremist brainwashers should always be a priority. Anyone know of Trumps ideas on education policy?

  9. 4 minutes ago, MeakMaker said:

    But that's the point. Violent behaviour is never the answer. Doesn't matter where it comes from. Those extremists coming from left and right are as bad as each other. Peace will always be the answer. Acceptance, understanding, unity will always be the answers in places of wars and divisions. A dialogue will always benefit both parties but the KKK for example don't care about having a dialogue. They want supremacy! Hate will never be the answer; hate should never considered as the answer. That's my point.

    The KKK is abhorrent. They should be monitored (are they?). Pure racists. I agree with what you write: hate is not the answer.

  10. 42 minutes ago, Nikki said:

    I asked because I was curious, not to play games. it's interesting to me how you don't wanna say it. I know some people IRL who I see at least once a week.. or every few days, and they are happy trump won. one of them is even a holocaust denier too. we still talk even though we completely disagree. sometimes I find it interesting to hear what the other side is saying.. i think we all should even if we don't agree. we can learn from each other.

    this is how I see it.. trump, le pen, and other right wing candidates for presidency found a target to blame all their problems on. specifically economical. but also social.. they can't blame the banks so they look for a more vulnerable crowd that rarely gets to speak for themselves in the media. (and when they do, they're marginalised) they have a scapegoat.  the romas. the muslims.. 

    the subtext is simple.. not only are *horrible immigrants* stealing the jobs of the middle class (although they mostly just do the bad jobs us local folk don't want to do. but let's ignore that). , they're also killing innocent locals and tourists in terrorist attacks. they use our welfare. islam wants to kill everyone.. the list doesnt stop

    .. .the media is to blame for a lot of it. when anders behring breivik shut a hundred people in norway, we all were told that only HE did something wrong, that he was an outcast and had psychological problems. we don't gneralize (or even marginalize) all norwegians. but that's exactly what happens with everyone BUT white people.

    of course there's also fear, but it's mostly about money and nationalism.. even nostalgia. "the good old days". I think trump isn't the worst, it's the people around him, it's some of the presidential candidates and politicians in europe who will take advantage that are the problem. it shocks me that people are falling into the trap. 

    but what will happen if they succeed? think about it. a western world where all illegal immigrants and refugees are sent back to their countries. the countries where they had to run from war or terrorism or simply a land where they had no chances to have a normal life. what does that make of us? and if they don't wanna leave? they're gonna put them all on an island so we don't have to deal with them?

    and when the economy collapses again, who will they blame next? whose money will they take?  who will they throw out or marginalise next? what will they do? take away maternity leave?  take all the benefits from disabled and sick people?

    Thanks for your reply. Wanna get that in before this thread closes! Seeing it's at 38 pages. I am genuinely concerned about the effects of immigration. And YES, my job is teaching Dutch to non-native speakers. I work with Muslims every day and their religion doesn't play a role for me. However, I am concerned about the rise in antisemitism and homophobia. Of course antisemites and homophobes can be found all over the demographic spectrum. But in large part, the *increase* comes from people who migrated from one/two/three generations ago. I worry about the position of women in our society. 

    I worry about radical imams spewing hate speech in mosques. Muslim Brotherhood fanatics with a discourse completely incompatible with the values of our democratic constitutional state.

    I wonder about the sustainability of our welfare state. I wonder whether continuing to resettle migrants in the Netherlands is really better than supporting refugee camps closer to the countries of origin. Projections for population growth in Africa are off the charts. Currently European border guards on ships go right up to the coastal waters of Libya and act as a ferry service for migrants from countries that are very poor, but not at war. I feel guilty for my worries, because I have a comfortable life in a First World country and I might do the same as those migrants if I were in their position. The Netherlands is one of the richest countries in the world. I know. And I have lived in Africa. I've seen poverty. But I also believe that these poor countries of origin need the people who are draining away to Europe. 

    Unlike you, I do not feel that migrants are underrepresented in Dutch media. My impression is that people who voice these concerns have been marginalized. And when they are shown, they are branded racist.

    I don't see serious engagement on these issues by most political parties. That's one of the reasons why I haven't joined the condemnation of Wilders or Marine le Pen on this forum. I don't agree with everything Wilders says. The ignoring of uncomfortable issues by other political parties, often by singing a politically correct tune of multiculturalism, scares me.

    I oppose further dilution of national sovereignty to an unaccountable elite bureaucracy in Brussels. 

    There will be elections in March 2017. I promise myself I will not vote for parties that ignore these issues.

  11. 1 hour ago, Raider of the lost Ark said:

    Acko be careful, you may open a can of worms here. But the fact that tumbleweedt is not answering this very simple question is interesting. To say the least. To me it's highly confusing because tumbleweedt says his/her (sorry don't know) job is to teach refugees the countries language. Something someone in favor Wilders certainly wouldn't do. On the other hand tumbleweedt obviously has kind of of sympathy for the "peaceful Pegida demonstrations". In a way that's kind of conflicting information.

    The reason I haven't immediately answered the question is to try to draw out potential preconceived notions, such as "Wilders voters certainly would not help refugees". Judging from your posts, it is clear that justice and equality really matter to you. I don't know you, but I interpret your posts as motivated by a wish to make things better for all. As I wrote in an earlier post in this thread, I really dislike demonization in general and in political discussions in particular. It's a trap I also fall into myself, of course. But it's a tendency that shuts down debate. The discussion shifts away from the issue at hand. People tune out. I see it all around: raise some concerns about certain issues and people are immediately labeled Wilders-voters (PVV'er in Dutch based on the abbreviation of his political party). This way the exchange of ideas is shut down and the other side is branded a morally wrong person, who MUST be a racist, fascist, or "Islamophobe". This silencing of debate increases division. 

    I don't have to be a supporter of Pegida to defend their right to peaceful demonstrations. When you start breaking the law to fight your opponents - or condoning others to do so - you risk becoming what you despise most. Your opponents may even gain from it.

    (just to be sure: I do NOT take your statements as a personal attack / you branding ME a morally wrong person. I understand you mean well. I haven't voted for him. Last time I voted for the animal rights party and before that I voted for the socialist party PvdA).

    So that's why I asked @Nikki why she asked me that question, to which she hasn't yet replied. Now, I could fall in the trap of speculating why she hasn't. But I won't.

  12. 20 minutes ago, beta_test said:

    at least the german speaking media I read, talk both about violence from the far right (when houses planned to accomodate refugees are burnt down or mosques/synagogues are damaged), as well as from the far left (when once again they think it is "fun" to burn or destroy cars - or damage houses of political opponents - and you are right, both sucks. But both sides are nowadays supported from parties of the political spectrum.

    I'm in the Netherlands. There certainly is vandalism by right wing sympathizers, but the overwhelming majority of political violence comes from the left wing. It's been like this for decades. It doesn't help their cause and may even have the opposite effect.

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